While most people avoid talking or even thinking about death, Clover, the protagonist in Mikki Brammer’s novel “The Collected Regrets of Clover,” is a death doula. She sits with people as they die, offering them conversation, company and compassion. Mikki and hospice and palliative care expert Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson join us to consider how we approach the deaths of our loved ones – and ourselves.
While most people avoid talking or even thinking about death, Clover, the protagonist in Mikki Brammer’s novel “The Collected Regrets of Clover,” is a death doula. She sits with people as they die, offering them conversation, company and compassion. Mikki and hospice and palliative care expert Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson join us to consider how we approach the deaths of our loved ones – and ourselves.
This episode was made possible by the generous support of Ken Stevens.
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Dr. Denise Millstine:Welcome to the “Read. Talk. Grow.” podcast, where we explore women's health topics through books. In the same way that books can transport us to a different time, place, or culture, “Read. Talk. Grow.” demonstrates how they can also give us a new appreciation for health experiences. Books can also provide a platform from which health can be discussed.
At “Read. Talk. Grow.,” we use books to learn in the hopes that we can all lead happier, healthier lives. I'm your host, Dr. Denise Millstine. I'm an assistant professor of medicine at Mayo Clinic, where I practice women's health, internal medicine, and integrative medicine. I am always reading and I love discussing books with my patients, my friends, my professional colleagues, and now with you.
Our book today is “The Collected Regrets of Clover” by Mikki Brammer. Our topic today is death and dying, especially focused on being accompanied by a death doula. I'm so excited about our guests. Mikki Brammer is an Australian journalist and author from Tasmania, Australia. She's now based in Brooklyn, New York by way of France and Spain, where she writes about design, architecture and art for publications such as “Architectural Digest,” “Dwell” and “Elle Decor.” “The Collected Regrets of Clover” is her debut novel and was named a Best Book of 2023 by NPR.
Mikki, welcome to the show.
Mikki Brammer: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Our second guest is Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson.She's the director of Education and Fellowship at the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona, where she's an associate professor of clinical medicine. She has practiced integrative family medicine in the United States and Canada and has served in leadership roles at two hospice practices.
She has authored “Energy Healing: The Essentials of Self-Care” and teaches nationally on integrative medicine, pain management, mind body medicine and energy medicine. Ann Marie, welcome to the show.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: Thank you for having me on this. And thank you for getting me to read this wonderful book that you wrote, Mikki.
Mikki Brammer: Thank you.
Dr. Denise Millstine: “The Collected Regrets of Clover” is modern fiction centered on a charming, if socially awkward, protagonist named Clover, who has insulated herself from others and kept herself from making friends, but works in an unusual, or at least previously rarely heard of, role as a death doula. Mikki, tell us about your first foray into fiction.
Mikki Brammer: Yes. So this actually came as a surprise to me because I never actually intended to write fiction. But when I had this idea, it really just wouldn't leave me alone. And it actually came from my own fear of death and trying to explore that. I'd had it since I was a kid and had really avoided everything to do with death. So, you know, I wouldn't really read any articles about it or listen to podcasts or anything like that. And then I got to my 30s and really thought, you know, this is something I should explore rather than avoid. And so I challenged myself to instead of avoid it, immerse myself in it. Which in New York you can make yourself in anything.
And so I started trying to go to talks on it. Talks by hospice doctors. I attended death cafes, which I didn't know existed. And during that whole immersion, I came across the concept of a death doula and I was just so amazed by it because I thought, wow, who would dedicate their professional existence to essentially watching people die?
That's a very tough thing to do. And it struck me as such a noble thing to do. And so I really wanted to consider what would move someone to choose that profession. And that's how the character of Clover came about. And then once I formed her, I thought, well, what if I could write a book for someone like me who would normally avoid books about death?
And so essentially try to write a happy and uplifting book about death, which does sound like an oxymoron, but I like a challenge. And so that is how the book came about. I essentially wrote it for people like me with the fear of death to make it more palatable and to talk about these things that Western society in particular tends to avoid.
Dr. Denise Millstine: And I think you have absolutely accomplished that. “The Collected Regrets of Clover” is far from heavy or depressing, even though death is a thread that goes through it. Ann Marie, tell us your reaction to the book.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: Well, I love the book. I see death as a transformation, and not just for the person who's dying. You spent a lot of time talking about what happens around the people that she's sitting with as a doula. And so we see her transformation. And I was thrilled you put that in, because as a hospice clinician, I've watched families transform around death as long as they can move into the grief part, which I think you did a beautiful job of.
Mikki Brammer: Thank you.
Dr. Denise Millstine: So you mentioned, Ann Marie, that you have worked in some hospice organizations and in different roles. Have you had the opportunity to work with a death doula or someone doing the similar role, even if that wasn't the title they carried? And if so, or also what are some of the things that person does on the team?
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: So death doulas do what's needed, really. I mean, I think they hold the space for the fact that the death is okay. That's okay, that someone's dying, and that for some reason, we seem to know that to have that witnessed or have someone sitting with someone else when they're dying is important.
You know, family members are often trying to keep the process from happening. And clinicians too, unless they're hospice physicians, are trying to pull someone back from the brink of death, which actually creates a lot of difficulty and complications. And so death doulas walk in and say, like a labor and delivery nurse, actually very similar. This is normal. This is what's happening. Let me carry you through it. Let me give you some guidance, because for most people, it's brand new for family members. And so they'll carry you through the process. They're guides. They're beautiful guides. And if someone's not sitting with the family, they also allow that person to be witnessed and have company. And I don't know why we think it's important, but I think we know viscerally that it's important that someone’s sitting with us when we die, if possible.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Yeah. My mother actually is a volunteer at a hospital, and they call it companions for the journey. So she's not a death doula in any sort of trained way. But. That's right. I think it's accurate to say there is something just inherent to knowing that most of us would like to be accompanied as we transition.
Mikki, you define death doula in some of Clover's conversations. But when people say “You're writing a book about a death doula, what is that?” How do you answer?
Mikki Brammer: To echo what Ann Marie said, I give them the example. You know, just as a birth doula ushers someone into life, a death doula helps usher them out of life. And I also make the point that while the term “death doula” is relatively new, in essence of what it does, that's existed for thousands of years, and I think it probably speaks to that instinct that we have as humans to accompany people in those moments. But when you think about it, you know, doctors and nurses, of course, spiritual leaders, in some cultures where the families are intergenerational, under one roof, you know, family members, it's something that's always existed. And I think it's great that now we do have another, I think it could have many names, you know, hospice workers have done it for such a long time as well. But that death doula or end-of-life doula, for some people who prefer a different phrasing.
I think it's such a special thing to have and so important. And I wish that more people knew about it. And I think that's one of the great things that's come from this book, is that just a lot of people just didn't know it was an option. And now I've had a lot of people reach out and say, I'd like to get a do a death doula for my loved one. Some people who happen to be towards the end of their life have requested the death doula for themselves. Some people have decided to take on training as a death doula because they felt like it was a calling. And so other people just have said seeing her in motion in the book, in what she does, helped me be with my friend or loved one in that time in a way that I didn't know how to. And to me, that's just so meaningful. I really couldn't ask for anything more from a book, actually.
Dr. Denise Millstine: That's so interesting. I could see people being inspired to do this work, but just to take the lessons and some of the ways Clover is so thoughtful in her communications with the people she's working with to apply it in your own life, because it's the very likely most of us will accompany somebody who we care about, who is transitioning.
Clover has a really interesting ritual after someone passes away where she captures the last words that were spoken and she writes them in a journal, well one of three journals that she calls regrets, confessions, and advice. Mikki, will you tell us about those journals?
Mikki Brammer: Yeah, so when I was researching about kind of people, what happens to them at that end stage of life and, and reading about what they usually speak about, it seemed to me that they mostly fit in categories of confessions, regrets and advice. Obviously not cleanly, you know, and as I kind of say in the book, sometimes their last words are nonsensical or not something that you couldn't capture. But as a general rule, and also just taking a little bit of artistic license, they do tend to fit in those categories. And I found that so fascinating that when you distill an entire life down, it comes to those three things. And I think it speaks to the burdens we often carry with us that are really heavy and people, before they leave this world, wherever they believe they're going, they feel they need to relieve themselves of that burden, but also just acknowledging the wisdom that comes with that long life lived as well.
And I also found that so fascinating and sad that the regrets were the very simple ones, like, I wish I'd worked less, I wish I'd said I love you more. It wasn't something like, I wish I'd become a movie star or something like that. It was really simple things that could have been assuaged if they looked at them earlier. But the thing is that most of us, because we don't want to think about, especially our own death, we don't look at those things until it's most of the time too late to address those regrets. And I really hoped with the book that the reader might stop on the you know what, if this were my last day, which of these books would I end up in? And if it were the regrets especially, what could I do now to maybe minimize those regrets?
And that's not to say regrets are a completely bad thing, because that's how we learn and grow. And I think a life without regret is probably a very boring and safe one. But the difference is, if we have the chance to learn and grow, so will we? Or will we just push them aside until it's too late and then, end our lives on that kind of unhappy, unsatisfied note.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Ann Marie, I can't be in the same room with you, in a virtual room with you and use the word ritual and not ask you to comment on how important that is. As Clover's doing this work, which is emotionally heavy, how important is it to develop rituals around caring for yourself and having a process where maybe you take a lesson from something like a death?
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: Yeah, I was so struck with that in the book that she was actually completing some of the things that the people said that they wanted to do and how she it's almost like our life can span before and after we're born. If you look at the Hawaiian tradition, you know, we're seven sets of ancestors going back and seven sets of ancestors going forward.
And the way Clover's honoring this for herself from the beginning until she finds her own thread is really remarkable. I also was struck by the fact that Clover had studied thanatology, so she knew a lot about death. And you don't need to know a lot about death, but there's so many different traditions that all converge at the same point.
And so, you know, I often will put in ritual with the patient, if they ask that the families come up with the ritual. Like the rituals we do, are very similar in every tradition. And so people naturally go into that ritual space because the veil is then, you know, you're closer to the other side. Very interesting. Like people dream about loved ones right before they die, things like that. And you just see it over and over. And so I was thinking back to the doula. A doula will pay attention to what's occurring and say, yeah, let's do that, because I've seen that happen before. And it really helps the patient and the families make closure to have some final moment together where they do something of meaning. It happens naturally, though. We don't really have to plan it, Denise.
In terms of Clover and the doula and the family member and the caregivers taking care of themselves, that's an excellent question because, you know, you get this burst of energy to do the work while somebody is dying, to sit with them, and then you have to kind of come home and take care of yourself.
With hospice, I used to joke that we needed a humor library as much as a grief library. You know, people think they have to be sad the whole time. Sometimes they're bursting out laughing. So allowing oneself to touch in both on the joy and the grief of the passage as you talk about people's lives and what happened.
I actually had a friend die last night, and I was on the phone with my friends this morning. We were telling stories about her. That is such an important ritual for us. You know, my friend who was dying was fine with it, but we needed closure. And so the rituals sort of come naturally. Denise, I think you know what I'm talking about. And you just have to allow yourself the freedom to do it.
Dr. Denise Millstine: So beautiful. Sorry about your loss.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: She was ready to go. She wasn't grieving at all. We're left with the grief. She was happy. Everyone does it differently.
Dr. Denise Millstine: I was just going to say it's interesting how its death is so different. Let's talk about a couple of the ones we see early on in the book. So we first meet Clover when she is shepherding Guillermo, who is completely alone. He is described as angry and bitter, which Clover interprets as more likely scared, unloved and alone, and she mentions that at least half of the people she's accompanied would have died alone if it weren't for her, someone performing the task she is performing. Mikki, can you talk a bit about loneliness and Guillermo in that way?
Mikki Brammer: Yeah, it's something. I lived in New York about 12 years and I've also lived in Paris and Barcelona and all big cities, and it always struck me how you could be surrounded by millions of people, and those are often the places where loneliness is, is so present, and that we can be living in each other's pockets and still feel isolated and lonely. And I've met a lot of people, I've done a lot of volunteering in New York and as a freelancer, worked in a lot of different places. And you do kind of see those people on the margins that do have this loneliness. And adding to that, when I was writing this, it was right at the beginning of the pandemic. And, you know, there was a lot of mention of how many people were dying alone, in addition to the ones that would often die alone in their apartments, Covid aside.
And so I really thought about that and what that must be like for them. And it really just emphasized for me the importance of these people who are willing to look death in the eye and look someone's pain in the eye and sit with them and just say, you know, I'm going to walk beside you in this and you can take the lead, but I'm going to be here and I'm not going to look away.
And that's what I admire so much. Just in my acknowledgments, the first people I acknowledge above anyone doctors and nurses and death doulas in hospice work and anybody who performs this function because I think is some of the most amazing people that we have. It's so taxing on them, such a burden. And I'm sure you both have gone through it. And the fact that people would choose to do that over and over again is just, I think, such a wonderful thing. And they're often not compensated as well as they should be. They're not supported as well as they should be. And so I really wanted to acknowledge the importance of the role of those people in helping people feel less alone when this happens.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: I wanted to add something to that, if I may, Denise, which is, you know, people who do hospice work are really called to it in medicine. They talk about people who run toward an accident and people who run away from an accident. And with hospice people, people are called to it. When someone starts dying, we start going into the room more. So it's really a calling. It's a deep love. I mean, it's difficult, but it's not as difficult. It would be difficult if you weren't called to it. So for people who do the work, they really love it, that kind of service.
And the other thing I just wanted to say from the deaths I've seen is that sometimes people need to be alone. So I don't want people to walk away from this thinking, oh no, my mom died alone, that's terrible, because I saw many deaths where they would wait and as soon as everyone would leave, they would die. Sometimes people have to be alone. So, you know, providing the option like you did in this book is incredible. And every once in while, somebody is like, go away, leave me alone. And the family is like, oh no, we didn't get to be there at the last minute. And every death is so different. Sometimes they wait for the family to come, and sometimes the family gets up and walks to the nursing station for one minute and they slip away. Then. So a death doula again would help with that. They would help contextualize what the person's needing.
Dr. Denise Millstine: We had an amazing conversation about hospice care with Catherine Newman and her book, “We All Want Impossible Things,” which also has humor. But then in that conversation, that's a laugh-out-loud cry book. But we talked about in that conversation, how there were many people who would wait for someone to leave the room or step away. And that's, I think, something that's commonly seen in hospice care.
Ann Marie, will you comment a bit about you already mentioned about Clover's studying death and death science or death across the world, actually. But in her early life experiences, she has some very quick deaths. So she has her kindergarten teacher who dies in front of her during story time, and she's the one child in the room who doesn't sort of back away but goes towards this man so that she can hold his hand and be present with him while he's passing away. This she clearly does intuitively. She's a child, but she's following what she has been called to do. And then her parents die very suddenly in an accident while they're traveling. Do you think these early experiences of death tend to make people more or less comfortable with facing death?
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: I think we're born with a natural ability. So I can remember when I was doing hospice and palliative medicine, and I had some people we knew closely die that I was taking care of. One of my kids can go in and like, she even helped us wash a body. And the other two were terrified. So I think that partly we're wired this way. So I always make sure I never push somebody into a direction they're not comfortable doing. You know, you'll see, like the beloved daughter that’s been there the whole life and disappears when the mother's dying. Okay, that's how it is.
And yet, to your point, I think our culture does not do a very good job at this point in time teaching about death. So we tend to take the body away right away, and we don't sit with the body. Some of the ways that people get comfortable in other cultures we don't have access to. So I think it's a yes and yes you know, it can be made more comfortable and some people just aren't as comfortable with it. You know, it's a little bit like Mikki saying you had to go to the death cafes to start getting comfortable with it, and you can't push the exploration until someone's curious. And then there are so many ways to get a chance to have a look at it.
With Clover, it felt to me and Mikki like you were weaving in, you know, that she hadn't quite handled her parents death all the way, and this was how she healed. And I want to tell you that hospice work has certainly done that for many of us. I would say it took me about two and a half years to really get comfortable with death. Once I was working with it every day, so it takes time. I was also in my 40s, so I was probably ready.
Mikki Brammer: Oh, wow.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: So all of the things are there the culture, the natural ability to move toward it and then also the experiences. Did I answer your question at all.
Dr. Denise Millstine: 100%. Yeah, this is my question, and I appreciate your answer. Thank you.
Mikki, you said at the beginning that you were kind of like Sebastian had been afraid to talk about death. I don't know if that's the right phrase to use, and then started to explore the topic by immersing yourself in it, including going to a death cafe or some death cafes. Can you talk to our listeners about what that is? Many probably will have never heard of that.
Mikki Brammer: Yes, actually, most people think that I made it up when people who read the book will be like, are those death cafes real? Did you make those up? And I didn't know they existed either, but I happened to be in the New York Public Library one day. It was a really hot summer day, and I'd gone in for the air conditioning, and I saw a flier for a death cafe, and it was around the time that I was doing this self-imposed immersion. And at first I thought, a death cafe. What is that? No way could I do that. And then I stopped myself and said, okay, no, I'm going to try it. And so I signed up and essentially it was a group of people, a meeting. I guess some people do compare it to an AA meeting or something like that. Just because it is kind of a gathering of people and you go around and you sense that there's a moderator and they basically speak about all different topics related to death. Everybody can say what they like. You can be a discussion, you can raise topics. Sometimes the moderator will suggest topics. And it was started by a Swiss, I think it was a psychologist who just started it, I think in in Switzerland, where people could meet over dinner or drinks and discuss death and mortality, because that was something that wasn't normally done. And then British men then took that concept and kind of spread it worldwide. And people don't realize that there is probably a death cafe in your town or city, or you can find one online.
And for me, as someone who was so afraid to speak about death, it was actually very, very healing in a surprising way. I was exactly like Sebastian. It's funny, people are like, you're most like Sebastian. And in that respect I am, because I was petrified when I went. But just to see people speak about it so openly in a funny way, there was a lot of joking. There were people from all walks of life, and I was actually able to say, you know, I'm here because I have a fear of death. And I thought this might help. And I was the only one at the ones I went to who kind of had that. But it was the thing that got me talking about it, and I think that gave me the courage to write about it.
And really go from just reading and attending things to actually actively participating in the conversation by, you know, if you write about a book and write a book about death, you're basically making yourself someone who talks about death a lot, which I found, and it really did help me work through that. And so I think the death cafes is such a wonderful thing.
I wish we could have those conversations in everyday life. And what I've actually found is when people realize that you are open to speaking about death, they will speak about death. But as I mentioned, Western society in particular, it's such a taboo that you kind of tiptoe around it. And if everybody's tiptoeing, everybody thinks no one else wants to talk about it. But really desperate to talk about it. And I think it would be much healthier for us as a society and for our relationships, if it was something that we spoke about more openly, like other cultures do.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: So we've started talking about in integrative medicine: What if we did talk about it, not just at age 65 on, but maybe even at age 50, asking people what their wishes are? And of course they change as they get older. And the other thing I recommend to people is writing an ethical will, which is what do you want to leave to your loved ones if you're taken out by surprise next week? And what do you want to write to your kids? What do you want to write to your family members? You know, they're usually a page or two of the things you want to leave behind a little bit like the journals she was composing, which, you know, she was taking what people wanted to leave behind or whatever was happening.
I was so moved by that in your book because I think it was therapeutic for Clover, and for some reason, I think it was therapeutic for the people who were dying because they probably haven't had a chance to do that.
Mikki Brammer: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And for me, it helped me with my family. You know, the funny thing is my family, I come from a family of doctors and nurses who are very comfortable with death. And I think because of that, didn't realize that I wasn't. And so I think it wasn't that they avoided the conversation, but it was something they were quite comfortable with. And so I always over here kind of a creative one, you know, thinking a lot about death but not expressing it. And through this, I did talk to my mom, especially about my fear and she was, oh, I didn't even realize you had a fear of death and then we talked about where it might have come from, but it led to conversations about, you know, her final wishes, my final wishes especially, you know, she lives in Tasmania. I live in New York, so there's a lot of distance there if something does happen.
With my brother as well. And that again was very healing because it was so bringing everything out in the open and not leaving things unsaid. But also it takes the burden off loved ones because they know what you want. And that's when I researching. And I'm sure you both know as well, the people left behind, the burden of not knowing makes the grief far, far worse than it has to be because they don't know what their loved one wanted. And it's very hard to think in that time. So as you say Ann Marie, leaving a list with these things detailed is actually doing these people an act of love because it's doing these people a favor. And I think, you know, you can add your personality into it, choosing the things that, you know, maybe asking for something, a celebration of life, versus a funeral is something you want, that they wouldn't necessarily know. I think this is your way to kind of help ease the burden on them.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: Yeah. And even the lessons you want to leave behind, you know, this was the most important thing I did in my life. Like the last words. Really beautiful. I love the way that you brought Clover back to her own humanity through the process. You know where she started to see where she fit into all of it, and she started to engage in her own life.
And that's something I do see you're mentioning, you know, doctors and nurses that are used to death. But sometimes I see people who are so used to death that they almost wall themselves off from it. You know, that's the risk in being a hospice workers, that sometimes we can wall ourselves off. And so I love the fact that you tore that wall down for Clover and brought her back into life, you know, because that's the goal, hopefully, is that we live each day like it's our last, but not as if it's our last.
Mikki Brammer: Right.
Dr. Denise Millstine: We see this as a beautiful set of advice from Leo, who's an important character in the book, that listeners will have to read the book to get his advice, because it's towards the end and we're not spoiling anything.
I feel like we've talked a lot about death, when you're surrounded by family and you have people around you. I do want to give some time for Abigail, who's a young woman in the book. So to set this up, Clover tries to take a break, but, between working with different clients and she's called by, I think, the social worker or a nurse at a hospital about a young woman who has addiction, who has cirrhosis, who looks like she will die alone, and the staff at the hospital doesn't have enough people to sit at the bedside with her and call Clover.
Would you both comment about how important it is to remember death doulas and people who might die more unseen?
Mikki Brammer: Yes. So, I mean, Ann Marie, would you like to go first and I would have to think on that?
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: It's a really good question. I remember posing this question to myself when I was working in hospice, which is what happens if someone's death is not grieved? What occurs there? Not that I have an answer to it.
At the same time, I think that there is a welcoming team from the other side. I don't know why I say that. I've just seen so many crazy things happen at the moment of death. But I think that as someone's dying, there is something there to greet them. I don't know what it is, but there is something there to greet them. So if they slip out of this world without being accompanied, something does take care of it on the other side.
That being said, so many people die alone, and that's why I put that piece in that sometimes it's okay to die alone, you know? We come in really alone and we die alone because I don't want people to listen to us and feel badly. A family member who died alone, I see families. It's a lot of grief on themselves.
And, you know, one of the things we see in the book is that Clover's idea of what happened with her grandfather and what really happened with her grandfather are two very different things. I hope I'm not spoiling, but that piece in your book Mikki, is crucial. Because the stories we create about how it should be are different than how it is a lot of the time.
So families can hire death doulas or even, you know, in hospice they use volunteers sometimes if they can't afford it, the hospice will provide it, which is really useful. And yet, if you have somebody in your life who didn't have that opportunity, that's okay too, because I think there's true assistance, either from their soul or from the other side that helps carry people into it.
Mikki Brammer: Yeah, I agree on that. And I think one of the characters I won't spoil, but one of the characters does essentially walk confidently towards death, I think is what it says, which is hard for the family member. But there are many people, you know, we talk a lot about people dying with regrets, but there are a lot of people who don't and who are just like, I lived an amazing life. I squeezed everything out of it. And for that reason I'm ready to go and I'm OK. And I think that is such a beautiful thing. And sometimes you're right.
I found that fascinating as well. When I interviewed death doulas and did a lot of research, how many people orchestrate the empty room so that they can, you know. I don't know if it's passing in peace or it is sparing like it's been last act of love, sparing their loved ones from having to watch it. And I think that is equally as beautiful as someone accompanying another person through life.
And I think that's the thing, death is such a personal thing and it's different for every single person. And I think that's what death doulas are so wonderful at, is not dictating how someone should navigate the process. But trying to understand how this particular individual wants to navigate the process and trying to walk them beside them in that in whatever way they can.
And sometimes I think with Guillermo at the start, she says, you know, we hardly spoke to each other, but we didn't need to because he signaled that he didn't need the conversation. Whereas some people want to reflect on their lives, they want to talk about the things they regret. They need to get that out. But it's very personal. And I think that's what's so amazing about these people, that are so attuned to and I guess empathic in that way, to really give that person what they need.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: I'm wondering, Denise, whether or not you think each hospital has a list of death doulas, because that hadn't occurred to me. I know some people who've trained, but I and certainly, Mikki, your book is going to make this more of an option for other people, which is incredible. But do you think those hospitals have a list where a family member could say, we'd like to get a hold of a death doula, or is it going to be a Google search? Like, how's it working right now?
Dr. Denise Millstine: I can't say that I know the answer to that. I know there are some hospitals, like I was mentioning with some volunteer services, and I certainly would encourage somebody to ask if they're aware, because even Clover didn't work for a hospital system. It was that she knew a health care professional who could get in touch with her. There is an International End of Life Doula Association and then a National End of Life Doula Alliance, that people could look to find somebody online. But I agree, I would start with your care team to begin with.
I want to go back to Abigail for just a moment. Maybe I'm stuck on her, but really want to think about or just comment myself about how all people deserve dignity and particularly when it comes to illness related to addiction, which we don't tend to always treat with kindness.
I thought it was just such a beautiful scene that Clover could be present with her and hear her regrets that it sounded like she had thought to reconnect to her family many times, but felt so much shame, and that this role, what Clover could provide in her death, was to sit with her until Abigail's family does come. And that's such a relief for this young woman. I really loved that picture. And Mikki, I just want to comment how you have people who have a family around them. You have people who are old, alone and angry. You have this woman I've just talked about so many different faces of death and I just think your book is really remarkable from that aspect.
Mikki Brammer: Oh thank you. I did really hope I could show it in different forms and that it happens in a different way, but essentially make that point that everybody deserves that dignity. And I think with addiction especially, most addictions come from trying to buffer some kind of pain, whether that's physical or emotional. So not to compare, but those people deserve at least as much compassion as someone else because they're probably suffering twofold. And I think it is hard to see that sometimes. But when it comes to the end, everybody deserves that compassion, that Clover offers.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Well, this has been a really remarkable conversation. I want to thank you both for being present, for bringing Clover into the world, Mikki, and for reading and gaining some wisdom. Ann Marie, from spending some time with her and the people in her life.
This has been a great episode. I appreciate you both. Thank you, thank you.
Mikki Brammer: Thanks for having me. Thank you, Ann Marie.
Dr. Ann Marie Chiasson: Thank you for your time.
Dr. Denise Millstine: “Read. Talk. Grow.” is a product of the Women's Health Center at Mayo Clinic. This episode was made possible by the generous support of Ken Stevens. Our producer is Lisa Speckhard-Pasque and our recording engineer is Rick Andresen.
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