When someone dies by suicide, their loved ones are often left asking questions like “How could this have happened?” The protagonist in Onyi Nwabineli’s debut novel “Someday, Maybe,” wrestles with these questions after the untimely death of husband. Onyi and Mayo Clinic psychologist Dr. Craig Sawchuk discuss processing grief, loss and guilt – and the importance of showing up and supporting those who are grieving.
When someone dies by suicide, their loved ones are often left asking questions like “How could this have happened?” The protagonist in Onyi Nwabineli’s debut novel “Someday, Maybe,” wrestles with these questions after the untimely death of husband. Onyi and Mayo Clinic psychologist Dr. Craig Sawchuk discuss processing grief, loss and guilt – and the importance of showing up and supporting those who are grieving.
This episode was made possible by the generous support of Ken Stevens.
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Dr. Denise Millstine:Welcome to the “Read. Talk. Grow.” podcast, where we explore health topics through books. In the same way that books can transport us to a different time, place, or culture, “Read. Talk. Grow.” demonstrates how they can also give us a new appreciation for health experiences. Books can provide understanding of health topics and provide a platform from which women’s health can be discussed.
At “Read. Talk. Grow.,” we’re using books to learn, so that we can all lead happier, healthier lives. I'm your host, Dr. Denise Millstine. I'm an assistant professor of medicine at Mayo Clinic, where I practice women's health, internal medicine, and integrative medicine. I am always reading and I love discussing books, so let’s get started.
Our book today is “Someday, Maybe” by Onyi Nwabineli.Our topic today is grief. And listeners should know the focus will be on losing a spouse after suicide. I'm very excited about our guest. Onyi Nwabineli is a Nigerian British writer living in London. She's the co-founder of “Surviving Out Loud,” a fund that provides fiscal support for survivors of sexual assault, and the founder of “Black Pens,” a writing retreat for Black women. Her debut novel, “Someday, Maybe” was a “Good Morning America” book club pick. Her latest novel, “Allow Me to Introduce Myself,” is out now. Onyi, welcome to the show.
Onyi Nwabineli: Hello and thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
Dr. Denise Millstine: I'm so excited to talk to you from the other side of the world, no less. Our expert guest today is Dr. Craig Sawchuk. He's a psychologist and the chair of the Division of Integrated Behavioral Health within the Department of Psychiatry and Psychology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. He is also the co-chair for clinical practice in the department and a professor of psychology at Mayo Clinic College of Medicine and Science. His research aims to improve the treatment of anxiety and depression in primary care. Craig, welcome to the show.
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: Great. Thank you for having me. And it's nice to be on the same continent as you, Dr. Millstine.
Dr. Denise Millstine: “Someday, Maybe” is a novel about a specific type of loss. Eve is a young woman in love with her beautiful husband, who she describes as a demigod. In the prologue, readers find out that Quentin, called Q, has killed himself on New Year's Eve and that Eve is not OK. The novel witnesses her grief as she's surrounded by a loving family, generous friends, and a hateful mother-in-law.
Onyi, I received “Someday, Maybe,” as part of a personal book service through “Just The Right Book!” It was so raw and such an honest depiction of grief. It helped me reconsider how different grief after suicide can be. Thank you. Can you tell us about writing this book?
Onyi Nwabineli: Of course. So interestingly enough, this book is a gift, I would call it, or a love letter to a close friend of mine who actually did lose a spouse through suicide and being there for her, or attempting to be there for her, as she went through or trying to navigate the aftermath of her husband's death. I kept asking this, most people would, what can I do? How can I help? Is there anything I can do to help them feel better? And she just kept saying, I want you to write about how I'm feeling. And that's a huge undertaking. And I ran away from that for a long time and said, I don't know how you're feeling. I have never lost a spouse to suicide.
I've experienced grief, as we all have. But this is, as you said, it's such a specific kind of grief. I just didn't feel equipped to do it justice. But you can't really turn a widow down. And so I would say, gently bullied, I would say, into writing this book. It is completely fictional. But, you know, the kind of foundation is for her, my friend.
Dr. Denise Millstine: What an incredible gift for your friend. I've heard many people talk about using their writing to process their own emotions or their griefs or circumstances, and such a gift to give that to your friend, to help her process what you were witnessing. And I'm sure it was solace for her. Craig, tell us about your reaction to the book.
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: Well, first off, I really appreciate the gift Onyi, that you've given not only to us, but really the world with writing a book like this. I certainly didn't pick an easy topic to talk about, but your gift of being able to take a fictional story and really get to the heart of a lot of the matters that people go through, both related and unrelated to people who go through suicide is so poignant.
You know, really with the prologue right out of the gate, it's a very guttural, visceral entry into your book. So it is just drafted in a way that really parallels the experience of what people go through in the context of suicide.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Tell us your thoughts about Q.
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: With Q, it's…we can take a step back and look at various risk factors for suicide. But they really vary depending upon -- everybody's circumstances are their own. We can think about it at an individual level: Is a person struggling with anxiety or depression? Are there other mental health concerns going on? Substance related issues? What about physical issues? Illness, pain? Chronic pain can be one of those risk factors.
We always think about the context, our lives happen in context as well too. So what are those stressors, those pressures, those things that people are feeling are unpredictable, uncontrollable and oftentimes feel very unmanageable. Are there in some cases even social determinants of health like poverty? Is there historical biases that they're struggling against as well too?
These factors all come into play when we think about suicide. What is a little bit different in this case is a young man, I believe, Onyi in the book mentions, frozen in time at 33 years old, at the time of his death. When we look at rates of suicide, we do tend to see rates happening more commonly in younger populations, but also in older populations as well, especially older males. So it's also not uncommon that we do see with men in particular when they actually do attempt suicide, it tends to be more lethal means that they use in comparison to women.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Essentially, everyone is potentially at risk, and it can be really hard to know what people are navigating inside their own minds and hearts.
I have a couple of quotes about grief that I just wanted to read to both of you and have you respond about it. So in the first one, “When someone you love dies, there's a period of disbelief, a time of dug in heels, the refusal to process your new reality.” Is this something you have witnessed, Onyi?
Onyi Nwabineli: Absolutely. And it's something that I've experienced personally. I think there is that time of denial where you're just like, you know what? I can't actually believe it, especially if it's an untimely death and something that you weren't expecting. And the way that things are or have been for a long time is that when it's an untimely death, something that shocks you, you feel kind of affronted that this isn't the sort of thing that happens to me or my family. This isn't the kind of thing that I'm used to. This is stuff that I watch on TV, on YouTube, on true crime documentaries. It's not something that I should be experiencing personally. So it is a bit of a slap in the face. Or it can be. And I've experienced that before and I don't want to believe it. Sometimes you'll wake up the next day or every morning for the next week or month and say, a split second thinks, okay, everything's fine, we can go back to normal. And then reality slaps you again and it's painful. It's like Groundhog Day, but the worse kind. So yeah.
Dr. Denise Millstine: There's a similar quote, Craig, where Eve's phone rings and she briefly thinks it might be Q and she says, “I can be forgiven, can't I, for thinking for just a second that it's him.” This is a common experience, isn't it?
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: It's a really common experience in grief and, you know, I appreciate what Onyi was saying, is that suicide, the sudden loss of someone is so far beyond normalcy for us. It's like, how else are we supposed to think and feel? It's almost like it's a completely different experience in our user's manual of life. So we're left with so much uncertainty and desire to have answers.
I know when Onyi had shared her friend is, to her friend, what can I do to help? You see this playing out in the book. And you also see questions about why, you know, why did this happen? So the desire to have an answer, the desire to have even one last conversation with a loved one, even though intellectually we know they have passed, something as simple as a phone call. That desire, that innate desire to have a conversation, whether it be to have closure or to hear them one last time, can really see that play out in the book and in people's lives.
Dr. Denise Millstine: And you make a comment through the book, Onyi, that there are several memories Eve has where she says she didn't know this was going to be the last time for this or the last fight they had, or that kind of thing. And of course, that is common across loss.
One of the other really important parts of the book, Onyi, is the people who surround Eve, and she has a very difficult grief process, as is understandable. But the quote that I pulled is where she, where you note, “That to grieve is to frighten the people you love.” Will you talk about who surrounds Eve at this time?
Onyi Nwabineli: Well, so she has a very close-knit family that surrounds that. She has her younger brother and her older sister, Gloria, and then her wonderful parents. She also has the best friend, and Bea, who’s there almost from the beginning. And then obviously these wonderful new friends that she meets along the way.
And that quote that you said, it rings so true because we all or we're encouraged or expected, I should say, when we've experienced a loss to rally really quickly. Yes, you can have one or two days where you can be sad. After that, I expect you back at your desk. I need you to be composed. You need to just have moved on. You need to lock away all of those emotions and participate in the world as we expect you to. And part of the reason I love Eve is because she completely refuses to do that. She says, I'm going to give this huge loss the space and time it deserves, that Q deserves me to mourn him properly. If that means I lose my job, that means I lose my friends, that means I don't bathe, that means I don't eat, that's how it's going to play out. And she's brave enough to do that. And I am also privileged enough to do that, because that it just isn't the case for most people.
Dr. Denise Millstine: I love how you said, though, that she's brave enough to do that, because I think culturally, when we see people, let's say, fall apart, and she describes it herself as falling apart, that we might have a tendency to view that as weakness. But if we don't grieve, we carry it with us for longer. Craig, do you agree as a psychologist to that statement?
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: Very much so. I mean, there's so many different pathways through grieving and it happens in context again. So, you know, one of the things I was struck by was the familiarity of pulling back and absolutely shutting down. And at what point does it become perhaps too much of a good thing or too much of a needed thing, because you can see the tensions that Eve and her family and her friends go through with trying to redraw her out on that. Sometimes it feels like they're trying to do the right thing, paternalistic on their own terms, like you can see it play out with her mother, with really trying to bring forward spirituality and making that more intentional in the Eve's grieving.
And then with other family members and friends trying to get to the real basics, like, we got to get you bathed, we got to get you clothed, we need to get soup into you, you know, trying to restore things. And you really see that tension going back and forth because on the one hand, family and friends are trying to bring normalcy back into a person's life, when a person's life no longer is defined by normalcy.
Onyi Nwabineli: And I just want to follow up and I think that's fantastic. And also what you said about the family as well, and touching back on what you said earlier, Dr. Millstine, about giving the space and time and the bravery.
There is tension in this expectation to go back to normal and to grieve, as you said, is to frighten people. And when you are, when someone you love is developing and you don't recognize them anymore and you become scared for them as well as about what you're witnessing. That's how Eve’s family and friends are reacting. So yes, they love her. They want her to be okay, but they also are terrified because they don't know that she will be okay. Everybody’s navigating this strange journey in their own different ways, and it plays out in different ways. Sometimes this tension, sometimes this all-out anger and a lot of empathy and just sadness across the board.
Dr. Denise Millstine: There's a late quote about grief that says, “One of the most horrific conventions of grief is its sneakiness, its absolute refusal to be linear.” I think that's so important that even when you might have this period of acute grief, that's perhaps shortish at the beginning, that it will rear its head again when you've had a loss like this. Most likely is it’s there for the rest of your life.
Onyi Nwabineli: Absolutely. And you just don't know what could trigger you at any point. You could have had months of being relatively on an even keel and then you will hear a sound or a song. Or you will find a sock down the back of the chest of drawers, or, you know, you will look at the sky and this cloud will be making this shape, and that can just set you off. It can be literally anything.
And it's beautiful in a way, because you know that you're still carrying that person with you, but it does wrong foot you as well. And sometimes it's so painful you think, will I ever be over this? And what I've learned in my own experience of grief is that no, you won't ever be over it. You just won't feel like that constantly, come in waves.
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: Right, time really is linear. It goes in one direction, but our brain certainly does not. The triggers that we come around as well too, and it is remarkable how sometimes the slightest thing that we incidentally come across, even a smell, can bring us right back and the intensity of that, like we just can see ourselves right there and we can jump into different timelines of our life. You know, with this particular person and then what life has been like afterwards as well, too.
And sometimes we do intentionally go out of our way to bring those triggers close to us as part of a memory. And with Eve, we can see wearing Q's clothing and looking for those smells and reconnecting with the visual art that he presented. But then there's so many unintended triggers that we do come across as well in that journey.
Dr. Denise Millstine: That's a really powerful distinction that I don't know, I have ever consciously made, because certainly when you've lost somebody, you might sit around and tell memories and you might cry and feel sad and feel the loss of that person. But you're absolutely right. It's like you knew you were diving into that as opposed to, I don't know, walking through the grocery store in a certain season and seeing something that reminds you and just being blindsided by that. And both experiences happen.
Onyi Nwabineli: That it was control, like you feel if I'm the one that's making the decision to talk about this person or to go and walk down this road that we used to walk down, then I feel like a bit more in control of my emotions. But if you're just, you know, minding your business, as it were, and then something comes out of the blue and you just breakdown like, okay, well, I'm right back at the beginning. And that's hard.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Hey listeners, we hope you're enjoying this episode of “Read. Talk. Grow.” If you find our discussions helpful and insightful, please take a moment to subscribe to and rate Read. Talk. Grow.” on your preferred podcast platform and don't forget to tell your friends to listen. Your support will help us reach more readers and those eager to learn about health through books. As always, feel free to drop us a line at readtalkgrow@mayo.edu with suggestions for books, topics or any comments. Thanks for listening.
Craig, I want to talk about how difficult it can be to recognize someone in pain is considering suicide. Eve says in the book I have the added bonus of a searing, unabated, vice-like guilt, a result of failing to notice he was in danger of being lost. This is also common, but can you reflect on that for us?
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: So you talk about guttural and visceral. There's another example, you know, right there, part of the human experience is suffering. It really is. We have emotions. All of us do. We have very positive emotions. You know, happiness, excitement. We also have a range of negative emotions, like guilt and shame and sadness and fear and anxiety. It's just part of the human experience and we all accept that is part of going through life.
And, but those experiences, things in particular around sadness, like really profound sadness or thinking doesn't always go to, is this a risk or warning sign that somebody really is in trouble? It's such a private experience, and I think that's the thing that as a clinician, I struggle with most and also with the patients who I've seen who have lost family members as well too, to suicide. It's that uncertainty and not knowing.
And Onyi did again, a beautiful job throughout the book really articulating that. Again the questioning like, did you know, why, the searching for a note for an explanation. And this is often the case, is that we don't always know why. We do our best with identifying risk factors, with or without a doubt, but oftentimes we are left with that.
And an interesting thing that one of our psychiatrists here at Mayo had reflected on one time. As a clinician, or even as a family member or a friend, how do you know that you've actually saved somebody from killing themselves? And that's a very powerful way of trying to look at this, as well to suicide. It is very low probability event that happens, but it's preceded by people having thoughts of not wanting to live. But then that kind of translating into plans, desires or even urges, you know, to do so and not all attempts end in a completed suicide. But it happens on a continuum. And there's so much uncertainty in there that oftentimes when it does happen, we are left with, what did we miss? And this is part of the experience of going through this and honestly, sometimes we will never get those answers.
Onyi Nwabineli: I think that's so fantastically put. And a lot of readers are very angry at me about the lack of note in the story. I've had hundreds and hundreds of people asking me, why did you do that? Why was there no closure? And what I can say to them truthfully is because sometimes you just don't get closure. And sometimes you do get closure, and it's hollow. It doesn't give you what you're looking for. And life doesn't always work that way. It's not always tied up in a neat, tidy bow. And suddenly you understand everything and you feel better. So I apologize to anybody who's still angry at me about that, but I had to stay true to the story.
But yeah, it's exactly as you said. I just sometimes you just don't know and you don't know if there's something that you've done or said that could have saved somebody. But you also don't know that. And I think humans do give, are very, very, very arrogant sometimes and think that I can be the one to save this person. I know exactly what to do. It's they that will remove all of that suicidal ideation, and it just doesn't work like that a lot of the time. And I've been there and I've thought that I have all the answers and I just very much don't. And it's painful, but it's a learning process. You just have to do what you can and encourage and gently push people into the hands of the professionals that can (inaudible).
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: Onyi, you should almost have a canned response when people are asking. The angry folks that are asking for that letter is you can say, well, “Someday, Maybe,” it might be the way to go. It kind of sets it up for it.
Another thing that stood out for me in this book is the part of the conflict and in turn, part of the incredible guilt that Eve feels is that there's that breakdown in communication and in how that communication was part of their relationship and how she really, really blames herself through this book. And I do wonder that given how you described Q, he's maybe not necessarily a person of speech or words. Is how he communicates where he is at through his medium of photography and pictures. That's kind of what I was struck with and maybe left with that. Okay, you didn't give us the note, Onyi, but you did give us his pictures and then the representation of that. And maybe given that's the way he's always communicated. Maybe that's how he communicated, where he was at and where he was leaving as well.
Dr. Denise Millstine: I have so many thoughts right now. I don't even know where to go next because this…
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: I'm a psychologist, we can sort all that out.
Dr. Denise Millstine: This is just a really powerful conversation, and I love looking at the book from different perspectives. And honestly, the issue of the lack of the note in the book is, to me, you being authentic and honest with what is many times the reality. And while some forms of fiction promise you to wrap up tidy in a bow, literary fiction doesn't do that, and I feel so much gratitude for authors who are willing to leave it messy. Because to your point, life is often messy and we don't necessarily get that closure note or no note, which doesn't necessarily answer all of the all of the questions.
I have a question about how people behave when someone loses a loved one to suicide. There's a description in the novel of people claiming, like on social media, that they knew the deceased probably better than they do, and turning it on to themselves. I'll miss him. These kinds of things. Craig, maybe as a psychologist you have some insight. Why do people do that?
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: Because they can. You know, it's one of the things to that is very, very common. You know, as we're talking about, people grieve in so many different ways and try to approach it in so many different ways.
So on the one hand, when somebody’s going through a terrible loss, like a suicide. There are like the people that are tightest to you can come out of like be there and be there literally 24/7 to try to hold you as you're just literally crashing in every part of your life.
But also part of the reality, too, is you can even have people that are incredibly close to you distance themselves. They don't know what to do. You know, they honestly don't know what to say. It's, you know, as we were talking a little bit earlier or threat and the fear of of grief. But the reverse is actually true, is that sometimes there are people that come out of the woodwork. People that you don't expect to play a role in helping you through this journey as well.
Some people that you don't know that are maybe connected in some kind of way, and in this book on the on the Isle of Man with, you know, some of the folks at the presentation, Q’s work and not knowing that Eve is Q’s wife, but they were very, very felt this connection, very deep connection with him.
And then in other instances, where people come into the mix. When Eve is in the art class, dodges going to the support group. Which remember, we don't always need to see a therapist in order to get to a better place here. But people who have no context, but can also come in and play an incredible role in our own recovery. People are interesting. There's nothing more interesting than the human condition. None of us have user’s manual of how to deal with grief.
Dr. Denise Millstine: I love that and you did share that Eve's family is really encouraging her to seek therapy. Because at this point, they're quite worried about her and her health and some other things going on in her life and they want her to see a therapist. And she finally agrees to go to a support group, which she goes to for a very brief part of one session and then finds a drawing class across the hall or in another room in the same facility. And she doesn't tell them, but she starts to go there, and she too uses some art to process her emotions, which is quite lovely.
Onyi, can you tell us about those art students who are looking at Q’s work and speaking as if they know him, and they can see all of the insights into how he was feeling when he created this work. Of course, after he had already committed suicide.
Onyi Nwabineli: Absolutely. So when somebody like Q. And I think we do it. Everybody does it to a certain extent. When you form these kind of parasocial relationships with people and their work. I kind of have that with Beyonce sometimes. So I actually can completely understand, you follow somebody, their work speaks to you. You know at a soul level, and you feel almost like you do know them. And so when they are gone, you cling harder to what they've left behind, which is for Q is his work, is photography. You feel like you have the right to say, okay, no, maybe I maybe I actually do know what was going on. If I can analyze the work, if I can see what's there, I can pick out and say, okay, this is where the turning point where I can see things.
So I understand that because again, when you don't have any answers, you try and make answers out of nothing or what you feel you can hold on to. That's where I was going with his photography students, with his followers.
And also because Q is a very kind of magnetic figure. He's wealthy. He's very beautiful to look at. He's also married. So he kind of, he wasn't one for, you know, interviews and big, splashy, kind of out there type of personality. He was kind of reserved. He's got the things he loved and the people he loved and his work. So when people hold themselves back again, it's that parasocial relationship type of thing. We almost feel entitled to an artist or to a public figure outside of their work, which is terrible. Social media also does not help at all, and it has not helped that. So those students, I could understand where they were coming from because I see it play out daily on social media.
In the past week, we've lost some amazing figures, Maggie Smith, you know, and, James Earl Jones, all these people that have played pivotal roles in our the concept in our media as we've gone through the years and you don't know what to say and you don't know what to do, so you kind of feel like you've almost lost a family member or friend because you're just so. You love their work so much.
Dr. Denise Millstine: So, let's talk about Eve's family. They just immediately surround her. They cook for. Her father probably gives her too much medication at the beginning. She has some reality checks with her sister. How important when you're grieving a loss, particularly a traumatic loss, is this support system, is it to have this support system around you?
Onyi Nwabineli: I don't know, and I don't know how people can manage without, except out of pure necessity because especially within the Nigerian culture, African cultures. And part of that is just what you do. Like everything is taken out of your hands when you suffered loss.
Everything is planned for you, everything is sorted. You don't have to worry about food. It's almost like I said in the book, you don't have to worry about getting showered, someone will put you in the shower and someone will change your sheets. Somebody will take care of everything in the house. There will be multiple prayer circles across multiple churches praying for your deliverance and your peace after the event. It's so ingrained in our culture and Eve’s family obviously rise to that occasion.
And both my parents are doctors, so a lot of what you see in Eve’s parents, comes from my parents as well. So, yeah, again, and it's aside from knowing that you cannot fix somebody's broken heart. You do everything else that you think that you can fix.
So yes, in Eve’s dad's case, it's getting her medication, sleeping, anti-anxiety medication to make sure that she can actually rest. For her mom, it’s filling the house with things that will help her serotonin levels. For her sister, it's taking on the legal aspect of things. For her brother, it's just being there because he doesn't know what to say, so his presence has to suffice and that's enough.
In my losses, my family and my best friends have rallied around me, and I know that I wouldn't have been able to put myself back together again without, without and so it does break my heart to know that there's so many other people that have to navigate this kind of thing by themselves, and which is why anyis so important, and the different kinds of love that I speak about in the book are so important. Everyone prioritizes romantic love, and it's fantastic and it's beautiful, but that even that familial love, that platonic love, it's equally as important to me. And I feel like everybody should have that, and so many people don't. And I think with the pandemic, it's become worse. People have become more isolated and that is heartbreaking.
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: Right, we think of isolation as a risk factor in and of itself for suicide. Isolation is also a risk factor for ongoing struggles in our own bereavement. And that's where you see this tension kind of in the book, the wanting to shut down, the wanting to isolate and how the love of the people around her, especially her family, is we are going to be there whether kind of whether you like it or not, especially her younger brother. I just don't know what to do. I'll just, like, be there. Come on. Let's go. But that what's the opposite of of isolation. And that's of community and family and community. It can be defined in so many different ways, which makes it unique to the human experience. But we are social animals, you know, by nature and when we can get in those very genuine, heartfelt connections, family with community, that is very protective factor for honestly, anything and at any time in our lives.
Dr. Denise Millstine: So tend to those relationships. And I think another important message is just show up, even if you don't know what to say, even if it feels awkward, it's so important to just show up.
Craig, I want to finish the episode by commenting on some resources. Onyi in the back of her book does give an author's note, which provides resources both in the United States and in the United Kingdom. But would you comment on how one reaches out if they're worried about suicide, affected by suicide, or just need to talk about the topic?
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: It's again, one of the things I really, really appreciate with Onyi’s book. Not only does it give us some language to start to put together our experiences, but also honestly from a public health perspective in the book, here are the places that you can call the National Suicide Prevention and Lifeline, both in the US and the UK and other parts of the world as well too. Because these things are 24/7. We need to have these things available to us, and that's why I appreciate that national health care systems have put this into place.
But also, let's get back to isolation and when we're in that dark of a place, depression, suicidality creates the cycle of feeling, thinking and behaving that just tries to draw you into that more isolative state. And the thing that we always hope is try to change this private experience that people are going through and even reaching out to one person, you know, whether it be a family member or a friend or even their family medicine team, somebody like that, anybody to break out of that isolation really is a lifeline that we try to do.
And it's so hard when we think about when the individual themselves is what they're going through, because the nature of the beast is to draw them inward, cut them off from other folks to further isolate. Why I can't even begin to describe the tremendous amount of courage that it takes for somebody when they're in that place where the thoughts are starting to turn into urges or starting to turn into plans, and they're really thinking about this, the incredible courage that it takes for them to reach out, especially during such a vulnerable time.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Thank you for that. I think that is a really excellent message. Thank you, Onyi, for writing this important book and for talking about this difficult topic. I really appreciate my conversation with both of you today.
Onyi Nwabineli: Fantastic. Thank you so much again for having me. This was fantastic and I’ve had a great time.
Dr. Craig Sawchuk: Thank you.
Dr. Denise Millstine: “Read. Talk. Grow.” is a product of the Women's Health Center at Mayo Clinic. This episode was made possible by the generous support of Ken Stevens. Our producer is Lisa Speckhard-Pasque and our recording engineer is Rick Andresen.
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