What makes you happy? Many people would answer with the basics: family, friends, good food, and (of course!) a good book. But what brings deep joy and purpose to your life? What little habits and practices could make a big difference in your mood and outlook? In this episode, author Courtney Walsh, author of “The Happy Life of Isadora Bentley,” and Mayo Clinic Medical Director of Joy and neuropsychologist Anni Shandera-Ochsner, Ph.D., L.P., encourage us to think deeper about what makes us feel alive and gives us meaning.
What makes you happy? Many people would answer with the basics: family, friends, good food, and (of course!) a good book. But what brings deep joy and purpose to your life? What little habits and practices could make a big difference in your mood and outlook? In this episode, author Courtney Walsh, author of “The Happy Life of Isadora Bentley,” and Mayo Clinic Medical Director of Joy and neuropsychologist Anni Shandera-Ochsner, Ph.D., L.P., encourage us to think deeper about what makes us feel alive and gives us meaning.
This episode was made possible by the generous support of Ken Stevens.
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Dr. Denise Millstine: Welcome to the “Read. Talk. Grow.” podcast, where we explore health topics through books. Our topic is joy and happiness. Our book is “The Happy Life of Isadora Bentley” by Courtney Walsh. I'm your host, Dr. Denise Millstine. I'm an assistant professor of medicine at Mayo Clinic, where I practice women's health, internal medicine, and integrative medicine, and I’m the medical director for Joy and Well-being at Mayo Clinic in Arizona.
I'm so excited about this important topic and my guests. Courtney Walsh is the Carroll Award winning author of several low spice, small town romance novels. She's committed to creating stories that bring joy and always promises a happy ending. Courtney lives with her husband and three children in Illinois, where she co-owns a performing arts studio and youth theater with her business partner and best friend, her husband. She published “The Happy Life of Isadora Bentley” in 2023.
Courtney, welcome to the show.
Courtney Walsh: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner is an assistant professor of psychology at Mayo Clinic and a board-certified clinical neuropsychologist at Mayo Clinic Health System in Wisconsin. She directs the Mayo Clinic Healthy Action to Benefit Independence and Thinking, or HABIT Program for the Midwest region for people with mild cognitive impairment. And she is the medical director of Joy for all of Mayo Clinic.
Anni, welcome to the show.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: Thank you so much. Just delighted to be here and to speak with both of you.
Dr. Denise Millstine: “The Happy Life of Isadora Bentley” is a contemporary novel that follows university researcher Isadora Bentley after she impulsively buys a magazine featuring an article titled “31 Ways to Be Happy” and decides to test its claims through a personal experiment. As she methodically works through the list, she has to stretch outside her comfort zone and connect with others in new ways.
Okay, you both know how “Read. Talk. Grow.” works; we discuss books that portray health topics in an effort to better understand health experiences and conditions that impact health through story. In this case, we'll focus on happiness, especially whether it's something that happens or needs to be pursued. Courtney, tell us your inspiration for Isadora and her book.
Courtney Walsh: Well, I think the inspiration came when my husband actually asked me the question, when are you happy? What makes you happy? Not in a mean way, but like in a way where like, when are you the happiest? And as I sat and thought about it, I couldn't really think of anything. I mean, there's the obvious things, but I really love my work, and I really love watching my kids do what they love. But like, in terms of me as a human, as a person, as a woman, I was like, I couldn't really think of anything. And I think when you get to be a certain age, you sort of let some of those pursuits go, well, at least I did. I shouldn't generalize. I was letting some of those pursuits go by the wayside a little bit, maintaining friendships or doing things that were outside my comfort zone or getting a hobby. I mean, that's one of the things recently where I've been like, I think I need a hobby, like I need to be really bad at something so I can, like, experience the challenge and the joy of learning something new.
So once he asked me that, I like to explore using story. And so that was one of the things where I really wanted to explore the idea of a woman who was on that kind of a journey where she just was trying to figure out if she could ever be happy and why happiness was always eluding her. And so I set her in an academic setting and made her very regimented and black and white and kind of a lot, put a lot of myself into her, but ended up feeling like at the end she was like my fourth child, that I just wanted to give a big hug to, you know. I think she needs a hug. But yeah, that's kind of where it came from, was just a simple question.
Dr. Denise Millstine: That's so fantastic. We've heard many authors talk about wanting to explore topics and their own health experiences by fictionalizing it, and really how that allows them to delve into it in their own way. Anni, tell us here impression of the book and share with our listeners about your role in Joy at Mayo Clinic.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: Sure. So I really enjoyed the book. I did the Audible version, actually, because I realized that I've learned that about myself with reading, right? That I need to access all of my time, and that's often done through Audible. So I enjoyed it. And I like the narrator's voice for Isadora, because a lot of her personality came out through that.
So actually, I thought it was it was interesting to read in the context of my work at Joy at Mayo Clinic, because in some ways, like her going through the steps, you know, all these 31 steps to become happy and finding ultimately that it's not necessarily about the steps, but who you're doing those steps with really connects a lot with our framework for Joy at Mayo Clinic.
Sometimes in the midst of trying to do some of this work. And I know Denise, you probably feel this too. You're wondering if some of these initiatives you're coming up with, like, are these going to resonate with staff. And sometimes this feels like a trivial thing to do in the midst of like all these other things people are dealing with, especially in a health care setting.
But we know that some of this is just fundamental to human happiness and well-being. So the things that we focus on at an enterprise level are what we call the three core features of joy. And these came through listening sessions with our staff. So these are things that really can weave throughout the story as well. I think these are meaningful connections with other people, and that was clearly a theme. Moments that spark positive emotion. And often those are things that catch us by surprise. How can we schedule spontaneity for the staff, so that we can provide those. And then the last one is, is the affirmation of an individual's value. For us, we think about it. What's their value to Mayo Clinic. Are they feeling like they're someone who is not just a cog in the wheel.
It matters that they themselves are their work. And so I also saw that with Isadora as journey at work, finding that her value among her colleagues and sort of what unique role does she play. I think that really came out for her as she embraced who her true self was and those connections with other people. So I thought it really came together quite nicely with what we're working on and what was helpful themes from your story.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Yeah, that's so great. I can just imagine you then taking the physical copy of the book and being like, there's a meaningful connection. There's a moment that sparks and we'll talk about a couple of those. That's fantastic. Maybe it should be assigned reading.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: Yes.
Dr. Denise Millstine: For all the people who work in this space. But, Courtney, at the beginning of the novel, we see Isadora and I think in my mind she was content or she kind of thought she was. She wasn't searching to be happier. In fact, she wasn't sure she needed to or even wanted to be happier. She just stumbled upon this magazine. She's buying junk food a lot. A lot of junk food. For her 30th birthday. She's intending to eat alone in her apartment. She's really disdainful and skeptical of this list and the woman who wrote the article.
So she's a researcher and she decides like, is this actually going to work? Really she sets out to prove that it's foolish and that it wouldn't work. Do you think that she'd given up on whether or not she could be happy, or should be happy, or happiness was something for her to strive for, for herself, and maybe even for other people?
Courtney Walsh: Yeah, I think in her situation, and I think maybe a lot of people feel this way, you're watching things go other people's way. And I think, like with social media that's very prominent, where it's so easy to look all around and that, well, what about me? Why isn't that happening for me? Instead of going, look at all the great things that are in my life. And I think I have to really check myself on that. I think we all do regularly.
And I think that in the case of this character, that was something that she struggled with. And I think there comes a point where you just kind of you're like, well, I guess this is I guess this is that, I guess this is what life is going to be like. And you forget that, like, little changes can make a really big difference down the road.
So I wanted to show some big changes and some little changes with her. But yeah, I think at the beginning of the story, she's really in a place of just being kind of resigned to this is how my life is, and things don't go for me the way that they do for other people. And she's just kind of mired in that, I think.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Yeah. I love how you said that. She just decides that this is what it's going to be, and there's nothing really wrong. And she actually likes her work and she has a home.
Anni, the first step of the list is to smile more, which Isadora finds kind of silly, and then realizes that it's a lot more difficult than she thought it was going to be. Do you think that's one of these simple steps towards happiness?
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: You know, I do, and part of this is going to, of course, tap into my neuropsychologist part of my role. But you know, we have mirror neurons. So when we express those type of facial expressions that express emotion, we're drawn to mirror that when we see that in another person, and then we're instantly sparking that connection back and forth between two humans.
And so I think it's actually a super powerful, easy step that people can do. And yes, she finds, you know, that she looks like she's grimacing at first and that it's not natural and that doesn't have the intended effect on other people. But then when she masters it, you know, she notices that it's happening more often.
And there's some cool research that once we start engaging in little steps toward experiencing positive emotion or noticing positive things, then that has this, you know, what's been coined the upward spiral of positive emotion. And we just notice more and we experience it more, and it builds on itself. And I think you did a great job illustrating that, Courtney, in your main character.
Courtney Walsh: Thank you so much.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Was that what you were thinking, Courtney, when you had Isadora meet Marty in the park and she finds herself smiling automatically, were you like, there's her mirror neurons.
Courtney Walsh: Yeah, well, and you know what? You know where you think that came from. Do you remember in 2020 when any time you did leave the house, you couldn't see anyone space. And I can distinctly remember in Illinois when they lifted the mask mandate and I went to the grocery store and I really didn't even need anything. I just wanted to see people. And I mean, I'm an introvert, but I still like I needed that human connection. And I remember walking down the aisles and like, there was an old lady and she smiled at me and I smiled at her, and I feel like we both were like, we made it, you know? And there's like, just that connection.
And I think sometimes that particular one can get misconstrued. I mean, it's kind of a joke in our family, even. Just smile more. You'll be fine, you know? But I really do think that when you have the absence of that, like what you're saying, mirroring with other people, there's so much value to it. So yeah, I did want to keep it in there for her because I think also when you're a serious person, you may not realize you're not smiling at people and being inviting and warm. And so in her case, I think as she warmed up to people, that just kind of naturally came out.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Well and also there's 31 steps. It's not like just smile and that will find happiness there are other steps.
Courtney Walsh: Right. And you're good.
Dr. Denise Millstine: So I already mentioned Marty, who's an older man that Isadora meets in the park or the courtyard outside where she works. She smiles at him and he approaches her, and they start to have this lovely relationship where they are having lunch together on a regular basis. But while he's talking to her the first time, she says that he makes her laugh and she feels a flutter in her chest and then asks, happiness, is that you? And I was wondering, Courtney, how much you thought about the physical symptoms of happiness, the physiology that we feel when we are feeling happy.
Courtney Walsh: It's interesting because it's somewhat foreign for me. I mean, I tend to be kind of on the cynical side, and this is part of why I wrote the book. Because my natural bent is toward pessimism. And so hearing what you're saying, it's really fascinating to me to just hear everything you were saying before. I mean, I, I'm trying to, like, absorb as much as I can because I really do feel like when you're more aware, because I think we get so busy and we're just going through our life. And when you're more aware there are physiological responses.
And my example of smiling at the woman in the grocery store just connecting with people, I feel like you do maybe don't even realize it, but it does have such an effect on you; body, mind and soul. I think the whole, the whole of it, I definitely think that one and I wanted that to play a part in this character.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Anni, I was wondering if you had a framework in your head for what is happiness, or maybe because you work in joy. You've talked about components that promote joy, but is it a feeling or is it state of being? What is happiness?
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: Yeah, I think joy is part of happiness, but I think so is satisfaction and contentment, which are probably longer lasting feelings. I think joy can be one of those short bursts that's pretty intense, but not necessarily so long lasting, right? If we feel joy for hours at a time, I think that's a clinical condition.
Courtney Walsh: Mania.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: And so in our normal state, it's a briefer but more intense experience. And then underneath that, if you're generally happy, I think it feels more like satisfaction and contentment in your life that things are as they should be and that things are generally good and going well.
You know, I think that gives us this ability plays into our resilience because as we encounter stressors or things that inevitably, you know, for no one's life is going all the time great. But I think for somebody who has happiness as their primary default emotional state, their resilience is way up here. And so when things happen, the way that they characterize that stressor within the context of their larger emotional well-being is that this is something I can handle. I can make it through this, and I look at everything else that I still have that's going well.
Dr. Denise Millstine: That's so interesting. And I guess when I hear you say people with happiness as their default emotional state are more resilient. What are your thoughts, again, as a neuropsychologist, for people who set an intention towards happiness, maybe it's not their default, but they're actually kind of like Isadora working toward it. Do you think that's also a way to promote resilience?
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: I do, as Isadora finds, brings us back to the way that these emotions spiral on top of each other. And, you know, we're literally training our brains to focus on positive things. The more we look for that intentionally. Our brain loves to stay on one track. Right? And it gets into its default state. And so if we train it to look for the good, we're going to notice more and more good. And I think that does happen for the main character.
These things we're always right there right, like the neighbor across the way. She didn't have to really do anything to create a nice neighbor across the way that was there. But she did have to engage, like eye contact and make some verbal responses to her. It was kind of self-sustaining, right
I think you demonstrate the role that people's past experiences play to. So for Isadora, it's not surprising how she got to where she is, right? She didn't have a lot of warm, nurturing relationships to teach her how to connect with other people or that other people wouldn't let her down. And some people are very fortunate to have had that from the start. And I think that allows them to be more likely to be in that default state. But it's attainable. It's attainable for the character, and it's attainable for all of us.
It reminds me of another wonderful read, “The Man Search for Meaning” by Viktor Frankl. In that he demonstrates, really that you can truly be in any situation and find things that can bring you joy, can bring you peace, and there's always a way to look for those bright spots, no matter the situation.
Dr. Denise Millstine: That's really powerful. I was going to ask you, Cortney, what your thoughts were about the traumatic experiences that Isadora had. During the book, she's going through these steps and she's making progress, and then she'll remember whether it was a past boyfriend or the mean girls that she dealt with at school or even her mother. Do you think those past traumas really present a barrier and an impasse for many people to find happiness and pursue happiness.
Courtney Walsh: I really do, I mean, for me it's interesting because in creating characters, sometimes when you're putting things in their back story and there's, you know, dark moments in their backstory. I find that sometimes when I put them in those formative years when the kid is, you know, growing up, it can feel like I've gotten this feedback every once in a while, but shouldn't they be over that already?
I just really believe that sometimes. And I don't necessarily know if there's like a specific age range or what, but there's certain things that they do really shape you, and they shape how you see the world or what your perception of other people are. When you have people that consistently let you down or aren't living up to their word, that has an effect. And I think that was the case with this character, is just kind of learning, ultimately, I don't really have anyone who values me, and I think that came directly from her traumatic experiences in her past, because that was the message she kept getting.
Now, does that mean she'll never have anybody that doesn't value her? No. And I think that was one of the things about this as sort of a found family story where, you know, it doesn't have to necessarily be people that you're growing up with or people that your blood relation to. It can be people that are like your neighbor across away. It can be somebody who you run into at work.
I didn't do that on purpose, but as I was writing it, I sort of realized, like, what if there were people all around her that will value her? Like you said, she just hasn't engaged with them yet and putting her in those situations to kind of force her to engage with them.
But yeah, I think our past and our history that all shapes who we are, and it can definitely keep us from putting ourselves out there. And okay, I'm going to try again. I'm going to try to make a friend. I'm making friends as adults as so often. I mean, that is so hard. And so, you know, showing a character that's open to it. I think that's a very vulnerable place to be.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: 100% agree.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Hey listeners, we hope you're enjoying this episode of “Read. Talk. Grow.” If you find our discussions helpful and insightful, please take a moment to subscribe to and rate “Read. Talk. Grow.” on your preferred podcast platform and don't forget to tell your friends to listen. Your support will help us reach more readers and those eager to learn about health through books. As always, feel free to drop us a line at readtalkgrow@mayo.edu with suggestions for books, topics or any comments. Thanks for listening.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Yeah, I really love how you said that. I think that's really important. And it's not like she's sitting around reconsidering the mean girls in high school. It's that when she goes to the yoga class, I think this is the scene where it comes up and she's made friends with Darby, her neighbor, and then Darby's friends join her. She thinks Darby is gonna just shun her and so she remember she makes the connection. And that's part of, I think, why people protect themselves into these insular lives where they're no longer open or as open to the hurts. But they pay a cost because they lose the healthiness of happiness that comes by pursuing that.
Courtney Walsh: Yeah. And I think your past sort of makes you expect things to go a certain way. If you're in the yoga class and you have a friend and she has other friends, and in the past, you've been sort of ditched, she's expecting that again. And so I wanted to show Isadora that not everybody is going to be like that, you know? Come sit with me, we’ll hang out, you know, that kind of thing. And I really wanted to just kind of heal some of that in her because, I don't know, I would hope that the mean girls don't stick around forever, you know.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: I thought it was a poignant scene and especially for women, right. You can, girls go through a rough spot socially, I think more so than guys do sometimes in middle school in figuring out these social structures. And so I think it was a good illustration for a lot of women, you realize with your adult friendships, you know, it's so different. And you can, you know, if you have a daughter, you can guide them toward this. It's not always going to be like this, and I think she finds that in that yoga scene.
Dr. Denise Millstine: So Anni, Isadora’s love interest in the book because we know we're talking to a romance author. Not that this book is necessarily categorized as romance, but Courtney comes with that background for the listeners who haven't read her other books.
But Anni, her love interest is Dr. Cal Baxter. What a name! And Cal seeks Isadora’s support to work on his book, which is about connections and the impact of technology, both for good and for bad. I'm guessing you have some opinions on technology and connectedness.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: Yeah, I think in general we find that technology has the potential to connect us to people we otherwise wouldn't, like the three of us talking right here. This would have been very difficult to bring us from Arizona, Wisconsin and Illinois, without technology. And we're connecting and we'll always remember this. And so when we use technology to connect with people who we otherwise could connect with in person, it tends to often be a take away from the richness and spontaneity of that connection.
I think we see this in the workplace with the majority of meetings being virtual rather than in person. Even when those people are close by, it's hard for people to have spontaneous chit chat in a zoom call, because it feels like you got to get down to business. And, so there aren't those side conversations where people would get to know one another or strike up just some, some side discussion about a shared interest, for example.
So I think we have to be careful about how we balance our time on technology with other people versus our time in person. I imagine we will see a shift that's a bit more balanced in the future, in workplaces, as well as in people's personal lives, with just prioritizing that in-person connection.
Dr. Denise Millstine: I really like how you presented it in a balanced way, Courtney, because I think we hear a lot of criticism about technology and what it does to our connections, how we have these friends online, how we are seeking clicks, but that you actually can make friends online. If you have maybe your new shared hobby, you might not have anybody in your direct community who also wants to do whatever that hobby is. And you can actually connect with people who are interested in that. So I really like how you balanced that. Was that difficult to do?
Courtney Walsh: I work from home and I'm by myself a lot because I do as a writer, it's pretty solitary. It's a weird kind of catch-22. On the one hand, it's most of my best friends are people that I don't live in the same state as them. And so there's that which, you know, we have, an app called Voxer, and we talk on Voxer and we, I talk in real time to them throughout the day. I mean, I was going to say all day long because some days that's that really is how it feels.
So on the one hand, I'm so grateful for it. But on the other hand, when my husband and I on this performing arts studio and youth theater and when I go there, I realize that this in real life presence is super important to me in a completely different way.
And so I did want to kind of show the balance of both. It's kind of like what you said. It's like it's not all bad, it's not all good. It's there's really good things and there's really not. So good things. And it's just kind of like, I feel like our pendulum is like one way. And I am hoping you're right, that it swings back and it just kind of evens out.
And we all kind of figure this thing out a little bit better because it was so new for a while, and now it's like, okay, but also let's see some people in real life and smile at people in the grocery store and that sort of thing, because I do think it's really important.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Should we talk about the steps? I feel like we should talk about the steps, for sure. Anni, there's some easy steps that Isadora chooses to start with initially. So those are to get more exercise or get regular exercise, to focus on sleep, to clear her clutter, to breathe. Do you think all of those are important to happiness or are any more important than others?
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: Well, I'm going to have to single out physical exercise. I imagine you would agree with me. Just, you know, there's really nothing that physical exercise doesn't help with. And that would be both for the mind and the body. So I think if people were trying to start with one of those, just a very simple beginner's walking plan or something like that. Getting yourself out into nature, getting your body moving, often feels like a brain transplant for people. And so I think that's a huge one. And there are a lot of people who I think their default would be, I don't like working out. And that sounds terrible. And I think that was Isadora’s first thought too.
Courtney Walsh: Yeah.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: I think oftentimes it's that there are actually other things in the way. It's not really the physical exercise itself, but there's concerns about going to a gym and being the least fit person there and feeling sort of shame or isolation socially. There's not knowing exactly what to do or feeling, you know, having too high of expectations, but just getting going and starting small, I think is a huge one. And we know actually literally produces those good brain chemicals that boost mood.
Dr. Denise Millstine: I love Courtney, how you give her the yoga instructor who doesn't discourage her from practicing yoga, but essentially says, if this isn't your thing, that's okay too. Find the thing that is your thing and make that what you do. But she chooses to stay with yoga because she starts to like the way she's pushing her body, and she's formed these relationships.
I'm partial to breathe as a simple step, and the reason is that breathing has never hurt anybody. It's completely free, and it is always available to all of us. Whether you're in a meeting, in a heated discussion with somebody you live with, any time, you can always adjust your breathing and it can be really powerful, which is shocking since it's so available and completely free.
Courtney, at one point other characters start to get involved in Isadora's project, whether she wants them to or not. But Cal selects one from the list, which is, spend time with animals. Why do you think that helps with happiness?
Courtney Walsh: Well, I have a dog and sometimes she does not help with my happiness. But for the most part, we've had, my kids have had, we've had several surgeries. My son actually just had a surgery, and I see the way they're countenance changes. And I think we got her. There was a pretty tragic event at my kid's school. Two of their classmates were, they were killed. And, you know, it was an incredibly difficult for the entire community.
And they brought dogs in. They even had dogs at the funeral. I mean, it was amazing, these therapy dogs. And we didn't have a dog at the time. And I just remember seeing the way people interacted with them and seeing how it just helped. And they just know, I mean, they just there's something about animals that just can I don't know, they can. They are just so incredibly we, as somebody said, we don't deserve that. But I'm like, I kind of agree. Like we just don't deserve.
And so I really wanted that to be one of the things because I think in my own life, you know, she adds a lot of value. We didn't get a dog for a really long time because I know we outlive them usually. And the thought of that just kills me. And everybody I know that had a dog was like, but it's worth it. It's so worth it. And I have to agree. So I just think they add so much value to our life. They're just so wonderful. And it that unconditional love and they're just always.
I mean, my dog just she's like a Velcro dog. She just follows me around. And as a person who works from home by myself and talks to myself a lot, that's just kind of really nice. It's like a built in friend, you know.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: That I mean, what you just said is, is what Isadora struggled with regard to having friends, right? Or having a romantic relationship. The pain of losing somebody, you know, she thought was not worth the experience. And I think that's a good parallel to having a pet. Right? You would never not do it, even though we have to go through that pain of them dying. And similarly those risks with relationships she ultimately finds that it's worth it.
Courtney Walsh: Yeah.
Dr. Denise Millstine: I'm sorry your family had to live through that. And I really hope your son recovers from his surgery quickly. We have dogs at the hospital at Mayo.
Courtney Walsh: Yeah.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Caring Canines and they're really incredible what they bring to the space of the room patients and staff. It's, that's really powerful. So I was glad to see that step as well.
Courtney Walsh: Yeah. They're wonderful. They just add so much. So yeah I love that.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: They never say the wrong thing.
Courtney Walsh: Right, they’re such good listeners.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: They're good at some of those things that we struggle with when someone just needs support. Right. Just the presence.
Courtney Walsh: Yeah for sure.
Dr. Denise Millstine: It's so true. Anni, you mentioned Darby, who's Isadora’s neighbor and they become friends, but Darby has four children in a small space and she has this precocious daughter, Delilah, who really becomes attached to Isadora because in many ways they're very similar, although very different in ages, and they conquer a step together, which is to sit and to daydream. They find it very difficult. Why is that hard for people?
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: Yeah, I mean I think this falls into the same category as mindfulness, right? Sometimes people think, oh, I should just do some, you know, a mindfulness exercise. And then they try it and it's so hard that they never do it again because they think, gosh, I'm terrible at this.
But in truth, it's hard for all of us. Our minds are going a million miles an hour, and we have so many thoughts. It's really a challenge, actually, to just focus on one thing and accept the thoughts that come in, the thoughts that go out and just let them be without trying to control. And I think almost everyone struggles with this without a lot of practice. So it wasn't surprising to me to see that they found that to be hard. But and yet we know there are some benefits to keeping up with it and keeping trying and just having that non-judgmental attitude, is part of that practice. But it's not something that I'm super skillful at either, I have to say.
Dr. Denise Millstine: But if listeners try to do a meditation practice or to take that step, daydream and apply it in their own lives and they find it challenging, I think it's great that you made space for that, Courtney, that it's not as easy as a as it looks.
Courtney Walsh: No
Dr. Denise Millstine: Okay, I want to hear from both of you. If you have a favorite step. So one of the steps that we didn't mention already, is it getting out in nature, being in the sun, eating chocolate, spreading encouragement.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: The one that just pops into my head when you say that is spend time with quality people. To me, that's where it's at and that's that meaningful connections. And when you have those people in your life, I think you feel like everything else is going to be okay, right? You know that that you can go back to them no matter what else is going on. And you feel that sense of belonging, sense of safety. And that's sort of the what really matters, right? Are those people. So that's my favorite step.
Courtney Walsh: I love that step too, and I'm not exactly sure how it's phrased now. I don't have the book in front of me, but the one about letting go. And I think it's really hard for, for Isadora to let go. And I think it's really hard for a lot of us. But I think when you can actually get to a point where those things that have kind of just like, gnawed at you, don't have that power over you anymore. It's such a freeing place. I mean, just to be able to let go of that.
I think the older I get, the less I don't want to feel conflict with anyone. I maybe when I was younger I would get my hackles up about something. Now that I'm older, I'm sort of like, I don't really care. That's not a big deal, you know? I think you sort of learned that things that felt like such a huge deal, like as you get older, you're sort of like, but it's really not a big deal. And I like to be able to just let go of things as much as possible so that I'm not in conflict with. I don't enjoy that.
You know? And so I think that's a big one. I do also really like the step about encouraging other people, because I think it's important. And I've done that to the point of kind of embarrassing myself because, you know, there can be somebody and I can see them and, and I'll have a thought like, I love her hair or I love her shirt or something. And I just kind of made a decision to start telling people when I think those, which can be kind of awkward, like, okay, weirdo, thanks. But I think it's important because we think these great things about people and we keep them to ourselves. I would rather just put it out there and be like, maybe make somebody feel a little happy that day, even if I feel a little awkward because of it.
So I think that's kind of huge. And I, you see people change. I mean, we work with kids and we you see them change when you're building them up and encouraging them and coming from a place of inspiring them, instead of just tearing them down and telling them what they're doing wrong. I love to take it from a positive spin, so I think encouragement is huge.
Dr. Denise Millstine: You picked two Courtney. We caught you on picking two, but you did choose 31 from the book.
Courtney Walsh: I did, I did.
Dr. Denise Millstine: So that is fair. It's fair that you couldn't settle on one.
Courtney Walsh: Yeah I couldn’t, sorry.
Dr. Denise Millstine: What I love about what you just said, though, and kind of highlighted, is a lot of these steps are vulnerable and they're hard. You think, oh I want to be happy, so I'll do something that kind of feels like easy. But there's a lot of angst that can come with them to get to the place of happiness. And so hopefully, listeners and readers of the book will recognize that to try, to push through those parts that are hard about taking those steps. So thank you.
All right. Let's end on this. I want you both to comment on this quote from Marty. He says, “Happiness isn't that hard to find you know, it's everywhere. It's all around us. But it's not something that happens to us. It's something we seek. It's something we pursue, and you'll never find it if you're not letting anyone in.”
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: I mean, I totally agree with him. And, you know, that's where I think no matter what's happening in our lives, we can always look and find moments of joy. We can find a way to connect with somebody. And we just, we have to get on, get our brain on that train track of looking for those positive opportunities and they're there. It's just a matter of us seeking them out. I think you've said it beautifully through Marty's words.
Courtney Walsh: I love Marty. He's so real to me. I can see him and I love everything he taught her and just his whole outlook on life. And it's funny because I actually have a neighbor that kind of reminds me of him, but I just met him this year and I see him on my walks, you know, like we walk the same path.
But I think for me it sounds so simple to say that happiness is a choice. And I don't want to oversimplify it, but I think for me personally, I had to learn that. That it was, it's a very intentional thing, and it's a decision in a lot of ways, sort of like the decision to love somebody. You know, we think that it's all about, oh, it's all romance and all this ooey gooey stuff. But I mean, really to love somebody, it's loving them through the hard stuff and the ugly stuff and the, you know, really difficult stuff too. And so I think that's what makes it so wonderful.
But for me, like I said before, being kind of a cynic and having a sort of pessimistic side, I have to be very intentional to look like you said, for those things. And I really wanted Isadora to learn that, that if you open yourself up. And ultimately, I really do believe that a lot of it comes from the people, like you said, with the quality people that you're spending time with, then it is there. It doesn't mean that all your problems are going to go away, and it doesn't mean that the hard stuff isn't going to still affect you and make and still be really hard. But there can be joy in the midst of all of that, and happiness in the midst of all that.
I love what you said about the difference between happiness and joy too. I had never thought of it that way, and I thought that was really profound, actually. So yeah, I like those words that he said, and I try to learn them repeatedly. You know, a lot of these times it's like these characters are actually teaching me.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Well, it takes a reminder, and that's why it's so wonderful that your book is in the world. I want to thank you both for joining me to talk about “The Happy Life of Isadora Bentley” on “Read. Talk. Grow.” Thanks for being here.
Dr. Anni Shandera-Ochsner: Thank you.
Courtney Walsh: Thank you so much.
Dr. Denise Millstine: “Read. Talk. Grow.” is a product of the Women's Health Center at Mayo Clinic. This episode was made possible by the generous support of Ken Stevens. Our producer is Lisa Speckhard Pasque and our recording engineer is Rick Andresen.
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