You’re sore, you’re sleep deprived and you’re responsible for a new life – what if you’re also struggling with your mood, depression or anxiety? In this episode, we’re talking to author Sarah Sawyer, who portrays the guilt, shame and exhaustion of postpartum depression in her novel “The Undercurrent.” Mayo Clinic psychiatrist Dr. Neeta Jain helps us understand what postpartum depression is and what you can do about it.
You’re sore, you’re sleep deprived and you’re responsible for a new life – what if you’re also struggling with your mood, depression or anxiety? In this episode, we’re talking to author Sarah Sawyer, who portrays the guilt, shame and exhaustion of postpartum depression in her novel “The Undercurrent.” Mayo Clinic psychiatrist Dr. Neeta Jain helps us understand what postpartum depression is and what you can do about it.
This episode was made possible by the generous support of Ken Stevens.
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Postpartum depression symptoms
Postpartum depression may be mistaken for baby blues at first — but the symptoms are more intense and last longer. These may eventually interfere with your ability to care for your baby and handle other daily tasks. Symptoms usually develop within the first few weeks after giving birth. But they may begin earlier — during pregnancy — or later — up to a year after birth.
Postpartum depression symptoms may include:
It is always important to rule out medical causes for and contributors to depressive symptoms such as hypothyroidism, anemia and vitamin D deficiency. Ask your healthcare team if further workup is appropriate.
When to see a doctor:
If you're feeling depressed after your baby's birth, you may be reluctant or embarrassed to admit it. But if you experience any symptoms of postpartum baby blues or postpartum depression, call your primary health care provider or your obstetrician or gynecologist and schedule an appointment. If you have symptoms that suggest you may have postpartum psychosis, get help immediately.
It's important to call your provider as soon as possible if the symptoms of depression have any of these features:
If you have suicidal thoughts:
If at any point you have thoughts of harming yourself or your baby, immediately seek help from your partner or loved ones in taking care of your baby. Call 911 or your local emergency assistance number to get help. Also consider these options if you're having suicidal thoughts:
Helping a friend or loved one:
People with depression may not recognize or admit that they're depressed. They may not be aware of signs and symptoms of depression. If you suspect that a friend or loved one has postpartum depression or is developing postpartum psychosis, help them seek medical attention immediately. Don't wait and hope for improvement.
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Dr. Denise Millstine:Welcome to the “Read. Talk. Grow.” podcast, where we explore health topics through books. Our topic on this episode is postpartum depression. Our book is “The Undercurrent” by Sarah Sawyer, published by Zibby Books. I'm your host, Dr. Denise Millstine. I'm an assistant professor of medicine at Mayo Clinic, where I practice women's health, internal medicine, and integrative medicine.
I'm so excited about my guests today. Our author is Sarah Sawyer, who's a graduate of Amherst College and the Bread Loaf School of English at Middlebury College. She teaches English at a boarding school in Western Massachusetts where she lives with her husband and two children. “The Undercurrent” is her first book. Sarah, welcome to the show.
Sarah Sawyer:Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is great.
Dr. Denise Millstine:Our expert guest is Dr. Neeta Jain, who is an assistant professor of psychiatry at the Mayo Clinic College of Medicine and Science and a board-certified psychiatrist at Mayo Clinic in Phoenix, Arizona. Her interests include mood and anxiety disorders, integrated behavioral health and perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. Neeta, welcome to the show.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm excited to be here.
Dr. Denise Millstine: “The Undercurrent” is a contemporary novel with two timelines connected by the main character, Bee, who's navigating postpartum depression shortly after the birth of her daughter, Attie. In the midst of her muddled emotions, an old childhood crush who was best friends with Bee's estranged twin brother surfaces, leading Bee to confront an unsolved mystery from their past.
So you both know how “Read. Talk. Grow.” works; we discuss books that portray health topics in an effort to better understand health experiences through story. And today we'll discuss postpartum depression.
Sarah, we met at the fabulous independent bookstore here in Arizona, The Poisoned Pen, where you were doing a reading with Zibby Owens. It's so great to see you again. I hope you'll tell our listeners what it's like to publish your first novel.
Sarah Sawyer:Oh, wow. It has been really wonderful, and I think there's a lot about it that I wouldn't have predicted, I think. But one of the very best things has been making connections like this with readers and with people at events and that kind of thing. Writing is a very solitary job, right, in some ways, but I'm a teacher, so I like very much talking to people about books and about ideas, and I think that definitely has been such a wonderful part. And this book, you know, I think connects with perhaps women particularly. So I've had a lot of interesting conversations with women who come up and say, Oh, this part, or this woman or this character made me angry, or I felt like her, I understood why she did what she did, and so that's been pretty gratifying, too, but it's a wild experience to publish a novel, for sure.
Dr. Denise Millstine:I bet you've spent your career talking about other people's books, and now people are talking about your books. Congratulations again.
Sarah Sawyer: Thank you.
Dr. Denise Millstine:Neeta, tell us what it's like to be a psychiatrist. What does your role look like and also your reaction to the book?
Dr. Neeta Jain:I'd like tofirst start off by saying thank you to Sarah for a beautifully written, I thought it was absolutely mesmerizing thriller. That you know, you really captured a lot of themes of motherhood. So as a psychiatrist, and I pretty much did perinatal psychiatry before coming to Mayo. And honestly, full disclosure, I am not a mom, and it wasn't until I actually took care of my niece and nephew for about two weeks that I had my first taste.
So as a psychiatrist, I am really privileged to really hear a lot of stories, a lot of sadness, a lot of grief and loss, a lot of feelings of guilt and also trauma. So I think you know where I come from, I feel like I come from a place where, if people can share that with me, I feel like it's such a gift. Oftentimes, I'll have patients say, this is the first time I ever said that to anybody. So I feel like I have a lot of gratitude for the work that I do and try to help people that I can.
Sarah Sawyer:There's such good overlap between those two things, right? Novels and psychiatry in terms of their focus on story, right? What are the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves that make the world make sense, and the ones we read too? So I like that.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah,no, absolutely, I agree completely. How you kind of started off the book, I think was gripping for me. And having Bee be how she was. I just could feel like the molasses of her being like, it just was like, so weighted.
Sarah Sawyer: Yes,thank you. I Appreciate that.
Dr. Denise Millstine:Yeah,the way it was depicted, it really did get you into that energy that is postpartum depression. Sarah, I wonder if you'll talk about your inspiration for writing this book, particularly the character of Bee and her experience in the modern thread.
Sarah Sawyer:Yeah, I can answer that in two different ways. One is that the book itself came to me as I watched my daughter actually go through a pretty significant medical issue when she was a freshman in high school. She's a first year student in college now, but she all of a sudden lost 40 pounds, and you know, her heart rate was like 152 all the time. And her pediatrician kept telling me that, you know, she was anxious. It was because of COVID. She was bulimic, she was gluten intolerant, I don't even know. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I was like, I understand why you're saying that, because of the profile of the person. But I was like, also, I work with teenagers, I promise you like girl eats all the time. Anyway, it took a lot, a long time, but basically, she ended up, as I'm sure you were guessing, having a thyroid disease. So she as a ninth grader, lost and gained 40 pounds in about eight months. And as you can imagine, she did not enjoy this at all, and she's very athletic, and she couldn't play her sport in the fall, and it was a whole to-do. It really made me just start thinking about all the bodies that women have to inhabit in the course of a lifetime. And that was a very extreme example of change, right?
But, and I think I said this, Denise, when I met you, but like, you go from being a girl, and then, you know, you're an adolescent, and then you're a woman, and maybe you're a mother, and then you’re menopausal or whatever this nonsense is, there's like, so many different bodies that you have to learn to be inside. So that was the sort of start of the book. Was like, what happens to that girl that's like, fierce and kind of sexless, and just being who she is. So that was part of it.
And then in terms of Bee herself, that comes really from my own experience. I didn't suffer from postpartum, per se, but I did suffer in the sense that I just couldn't believe what was happening. I was like, Is this seriously what women do? I was like, I can't even go to the CVS. I've got this baby who eats constantly and never sleeps. Like I just was amazed by that, and found it physically really a lot. And I also found that when I described it that way, without any guilt because I didn't care., women were like, “Ooh, I actually felt that way too,” but for whatever reason, didn't feel like they could talk about motherhood that way. And I was like, Yeah, I adore this baby, right, sure, but I also don't enjoy this at all, and I would like it to be over, you know?
So I think that kind of thing that happens in motherhood, which is in a lot of ways, feels like just a loss of autonomy and you have to kind of rebuild it. It’s a kind of violent, upsetting experience. And I think that it's not one that society talks about a lot. And then if you add the layer that Bee is experiencing of actually not being able to jump start herself. Then, obviously it's magnified and much worse, but those descriptions really are just me talking about what I felt like. That I remember pretty well, even though it was, you know, my son was born. He's 21 now, so it was a long time ago, but it's in my bones.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah, no, I think how our society actually portrays like pregnancy and postpartum, you know, is really impacting as well, right? So if you're having you know, this expectation with a variety of different emotions, mostly excitement of what's to come, and the joy of being a new mom, having that right there. But never really anticipating how this is going to unfold when it really does land, and how it does take over your life, where even you know, as Bee describes herself as being broken, she's so astonished that other women are able to kind of carry-on normal lives. And it's just like, how could this be, right? No one ever talks about it.
Sarah Sawyer:Right. And I think you know, obviously different women are constructed differently and like different ages of their children's lives. I particularly liked when my children could talk to me and I could have a nice conversation with them. But I think more women than you might think, considering the way the world is, that feel it like this. My mother always says, which I find so funny. She says, Beware of any endeavors in life that require parties, women throwing parties especially. If it's true, it's like, you know, uh oh, something hard is coming.
Dr. Denise Millstine:That's a good life lesson. I think for all of us. There is an early scene in the book where we see Bee and she's noticing that she has something leaking out of her, whether it's blood or some fluid. Her husband is trying to mansplain the folding of onesies to her, in a nice way. And she is very much trying to appear, even to her husband, so her partner, somebody who's very intimate in her life. Obviously, she's very focused on portraying that she is air quotes here. “fine.” Neeta, is this really typical for women who are on that continuum of raising a newborn, which is hard for anybody, there are moments that it's challenging for anybody, and then when it's shifting into what is postpartum depression.
Dr. Neeta Jain:I think there is that energy that you don't want someone to see, that you're really struggling, right? It can be so challenging. So she has a husband who is a ER doctor. So it becomes even more so, because I think the day-to-day monotony, as she describes, of just kind of being a glorified cow. Her whole day just kind of really shrunk into laundry, dinner, feeds, and I think it's not unusual for women to kind of keep that in check. I think there's a lot of shame, there's a lot of feelings of inadequacy, a lot of feelings of guilt, because it's not really spoken of. You don't hear other people really being open about having similar feelings when they're experiencing, you know, motherhood early on. So it's something where, I think it's not uncommon to have that kind of all checked in, as she does, you know, she keeps her notes, she keeps her to do list, but she's trying. It's been such a struggle.
Sarah Sawyer:I think one thingthat we, generally speaking as a society, have learned too now is that, you know, I think lots of women are super confident in an organizational sense, and can run a household, do all those things and look perfectly fine, even if they are not. I think we have a much stronger understanding of that, you know, I would say, probably than I don't know if you agree, Neeta, but maybe in the past 10 years we could call it, that depression might look a lot of different ways, I suspect. And you can tell me, if you think this is true, that women might be particularly good at hiding it just because there's such a high level of competency in terms of executive functioning. You know, generally I think.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah, no, I think you're right on. I totally agree. I think we are super women by and large. We have our day shift at work and our night shift when we come home, and I think we see other coworkers’ kind of doing it. Everyone's kind of doing it. So, yeah, so I think there's this level of expectation and holding ourselves accountable to the people around us. So yeah, I do think that that's there for sure.
Dr. Denise Millstine:Will you talk about what postpartum depression is and when it is different than up and down mood of having just had a baby, raising this child who is now literally dependent on you for every part of his or her existence. Can you just talk about when is it that listeners and readers should pause and think maybe this goes beyond it being hard.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah, no, that's a great question. So I think one of the things that can happen really early on after delivery is what we call postpartum blues, or baby blues. Oftentimes this happens really, pretty early on after delivery, where women feel very emotional. They can feel sad. They have a lot of emotions, feelings, difficulty with sleep. This is really associated with just the normal delivery and changes in terms of hormone levels, from going to really, really high to a precipitous drop.
So that's very normal, and that can resolve on its own within two to three weeks. That's not uncommon, and up to about 80% of women can experience this, and it's not thought to be a disorder at all, but where it shifts is when this becomes more continuous. When we notice after about a month or so, changes in terms of our mood, feeling down, feeling irritable, noticing we're tearful, sad, having difficulty really connecting and bonding with our child, withdrawing from friends, family, also with changes with sleep. So the one thing you want to be able to do is sleep when the baby sleeps, but if the baby, and if you can't, it, can really spurn on, a lot more anxiety, lot more worry. Fatigue is really intensified. So I think we're thinking of a lot of the similar symptoms that you see in depression; like loss of interest, low energy, low motivation.
In addition, what's more prominent in the postpartum period is heightened anxiety. Anxiety tends to be a little bit more obsessional in this time period. So that's one thing where you don't really see more of the rituals, but it's more of this kind of worrying, over worrying, overthinking.
Sarah Sawyer:Neeta, can I ask a question about that? Just, I'm just curious, because this is what I made for Bee but I didn't know if this is really true or not. Would it be the case that if you were a person who had experienced those sorts of things in the past, that it would be more likely that, or is it not correlative? I guess is the word, yeah.
Dr. Neeta Jain:So that's a great question in terms of experience of the past, in terms of having a history of depression?
Sarah Sawyer: Yeah,or anxiety, or compulsion, or whatever the case maybe.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah, that could be potentially a risk factor re-experiencing that after delivery. So one of the things is pregnancy and postpartum is really a high-risk period for women period. But what makes it even more intensified if there's a, you know, a history of anxiety, a history of depression, a history of premenstrual mood symptoms, that can actually be a little bit more impacting after delivery. So, yeah, those things really can be impacting or even having a family history of depression or postpartum depression.
Dr. Denise Millstine:Are these the major risk factors you think of Neeta? I mean, certainly anybody could have postpartum depression after the birth of a child, but that history of a mood disorder, anxiety, depression or a family history, those are your major risk factors. Or are there others?
Dr. Neeta Jain:There’s others too. So those are common ones. The other thing, I think, is also whether that's a planned or unplanned pregnancy. Whether there's stressors during the pregnancy, in terms of relationship stressors, financial stressors, work related stressors. So those can also weigh in, and it's something where you want to really give them credence. And I think, you know, major life events obviously really do impact people, and whether we have support or lack of support, also is very affecting.
Sarah Sawyer:Yeah, I was joking before, I think, before we started recording today. But I was born in Minnesota, and my mother had two small children. And she always tells a story. My father was a professor, and he took some students on a trip, and so she was, as she describes it, on the prairie alone with two small children, and miserable. I live in boarding school, so when my children were born here, and you know, you just walk outside, and there's a million other faculty children, and you kind of hand babies off in the dining hall, like here, take this baby. I'm gonna go do whatever. So you do have a ton of support. And I think the women who I know here who have experienced depression also had a lot of people dragging them out of bed, taking them on walks, bringing them stuff, visiting them. I think that factor of isolation that Bee is experiencing too, is just so that would make it pretty terrible, I think.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah, I love your point, because I lived in Massachusetts, I lived in Providence, and my sister, my niece and nephew, who I babysat. When she would be alone, she would come to visit me, and she would do everything. It was just that support, right. that really was impacting and culturally, in our culture, in India, what happens is the first month, all the other older women kind of really nurture the new mom with special foods, making sure that they don't have to do any extra chores. And I think you see this in other you know, cultures as well in African cultures and also Southeast Asian. So I think it really says a lot. Having support, having a community, really is important.
Dr. Denise Millstine: Hey listeners, we hope you're enjoying this episode of “Read. Talk. Grow.” If you find our discussions helpful and insightful, please take a moment to subscribe to and rate “Read. Talk. Grow.” on your preferred podcast platform and don't forget to tell your friends to listen. Your support will help us reach more readers and those eager to learn about health through books. As always, feel free to drop us a line at readtalkgrow@mayo.edu with suggestions for books, topics or any comments. Thanks for listening.
Dr. Denise Millstine:And then we contrast that to Bee, who is looking at her to do list, which includes just the work of life, the laundry, the preparing meals, the cleaning, and I think is accurately depicted as beating herself up for not doing more, not being the mom who's out on the path running with her sleeping baby in the stroller. Sarah, was that an important component, that idea of how she's comparing herself to others that seem to be thriving while she's really walking through the molasses.
Sarah Sawyer:Yeah. I mean, I think probably because I spend a lot of time with teenagers, I'm very attuned to how much people really do compare themselves to other people, and how useless that is as a way of operating, because it is never accurate whatever you're imagining that some other person is doing, and it's just not helpful, right? But I think you know, in the case of Bee, she is recognizing something accurate about herself, which is that she does need to get up and go, and she's not able to kind of figure out what's the thing that is going to jump start her.
And, you know, her husband is so lovely, but he's also not really able to describe to her in a helpful way. And I think this is, you know, anyone who's married is familiar with this dynamic, but you know, nobody likes to be told what to do or how they're feeling. And so that was important to me, too, I think, as an element of that dynamic to depict she's also stubborn, right? She doesn't want to do what she's supposed to do, or has to do, or should be doing, either, you know, so she's really gotten herself into quite a pickle.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah, and then I mean, he's so supportive, caring, and you see him actually cooing, singing to Attie. You see him doing the things that you would expect Bee to be doing. And yeah, there were so many times while I was reading this where she leaves Attie upstairs, I'm like, Oh, my God, oh my god. I'm like, or, you know, she went off to see Leo at the bar, and I'm like, you didn't feed her.
Sarah Sawyer:My neighbor was like, I hate her. She's the worst. I'm like, well, nobody, you know, she's not trying to be liked by you. She's just existing, but yes, no, she's not that likable in a lot of ways. A lot of women have come up to me with the leaving Attie on the bed. They were like, No,
Dr. Denise Millstine:We won't spoil the book, but Attie ends up okay, being left unsupervised on the bed, which no newborn should be.
I think one of the under recognized components of postpartum depression that we see in Bee. Neeta, is that she's looking at her life and feeling like she's undeserving. She feels like she has this husband, she has a stable household, and she is really not being compassionate to herself. Will you talk about that element of this mood, condition?
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah, so, I mean absolutely. So you do feel her feeling of unworthiness, right? She's not deserving of her daughter, of her husband. And I think a lot of women feel the sense of guilt and shame that they have everything. There's no reason for them to be feeling this way. And one of the things that I do really want to point out that postpartum depression is not a character flaw or weakness. And I think sometimes that can be perceived about depression in general, that this is a real medical condition. And I think trying to really bring awareness that this can happen, that you're not doing anything to bring this on yourself, is so important. And I think you see it in Bee. Really, I mean, she is just beating herself up. She's missing her work colleagues, she's so isolated, she's exhausted, she's so disgusted with how she looks and feels in terms of not even recognizing her body. And we were talking about, you know, in terms of body habitus and how that changes, and I think it's just a shock to her system, absolutely.
So this unworthiness, she has everything anyone could hope for, but can't wrap her head around that, and goes to the Internet where she sees the cookies that her husband kind of been scrolling for with the postpartum depression mother attachment, and doesn't even make those connections. Honestly, I don't feel like she did. I don't really felt like she had that feeling of attachment towards Attie.
Sarah Sawyer:I think there's a line in there. I can't quote myself sadly, but where she talks about feeling like Attie is a literal part of her body, like her leg, you know, or her arm or something like that. She's not feeling what she imagined she's supposed to feel, right, which is some kind of wellspring of affection that bubbles forth all the time when she sees her baby, but she feels something more than that, I think, which is, you know, more biological and earthy, maybe just like this is her right, also and so intensely attached to her in a way that is shocking to her right, surprises her, but also not negotiable in any kind you know. It's not that she would ever leave her baby or do anything to her like she's like, this is some other kind of bond that I didn't even know existed.
I think we're so limited in our ways that we talk about how we might feel about someone that we're related to. I mean, you might feel different, you might feel something like admiration. You might feel, all kinds of things. We just say, Oh, that's my mom. I love her, whatever it is, you know. I think there are other languages, right, where we have better, better and more words for these things.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Do you feel like she felt responsible for Attie? I kind of felt like she felt dutiful, you know, and providing certain things, right?
Sarah Sawyer:Yeah,no, I think so. I think when I was writing the scenes that have Attie in them, with the exception of when she's in Texas, I wanted to make Attie feel really like an extension of her body. And then there's places where that sort of bond gets broken, usually because something like Leo has arrived at the door, or whatever, something is happening that makes her feel more like herself, separate from having the baby.
So, and I think a lot of that, you know, when you first have a child, at least, this was my experience. I strapped him on and went about my business, you know. And I think that kind of feeling is not something you can ever really replicate, just like what it's like to have some just a thing strapped to you as you go about your day.
I think for Bee, she's still trying to figure out really, like, what that means. You know, I think in a less fraught situation, it would just mean that you were intensely connected to the person, to the baby, but I think for her, it's an equation of like, do I get to be myself, or do I not get to be myself? And how do I figure out how to be a mother, right, and also myself, right? Which is a dramatic version of, I think, what every mother has to do, right?
Dr. Neeta Jain:Yeah, no, I think it's a recreating that fine balance of giving to your child and also at the same time trying to give to yourself. So I think a lot of women struggle with that, in terms of really finding that balance for themselves.
Sarah Sawyer:Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Denise Millstine:I want to highlight something you said Neeta a little while ago, which is that having postpartum depression is not a character flaw and not a weakness. I think that deserves to be said again, and also that it is something that professionals can help with. So I very much appreciated, Sarah, how you portrayed Charlie seeing what was happening and wanting to either raise the issue or teach himself more about what was going on, and yet not bringing it up directly, such that Bee could then find that pathway where getting help felt like an option. What do you think about that?
Sarah Sawyer:I think in the novel, it was important to me to not make it feel sort of easy to get out of I mean, if that makes sense. I mean, I would never want to be glib about something like that, and I would never want to never want to imply, Oh, her husband did a Google search and then, ta-dah. I think you get the sense by the end of the novel is it ends on a optimistic note for Bee. But I think that the idea is that there is a lot ahead for her, like still work to be done and problems to be solved and all that. I think that at least in the experiences I have had with people who've had postpartum depression, I would say it's, it is certainly a solvable issue, absolutely and I think that you have to understand what's happening to you in order to kind of get to a place where you could seek help.
I think a lot of women, because as you were saying, Neeta, it's just so common to have a baby and not feel great, you know. And so I think a lot of women just kind of muddle through, probably for longer than they need to and obviously there's dramatic examples of that that you know, that we've all seen in the news, which are really horrific. One hope I would have for the novel is just with that issue, and then with the other family issue that happens in the book is like that, shame is not useful at all. In these categories, you can perpetuate and cause so much suffering that isn't necessary.
Some amount of suffering is inevitable, right? But I think if people spoke more candidly and openly and frequently about these things, I think it would go a lot better. We always this -- is just sort of a gross joke. But when I had my first baby, I have a friend who was about to have her first baby, there was a mucus plug that came out me and I was like, where in baby books was this? Because I don't recall it, and here it is. And she was like, you're crazy, that's just you. And then, like, a month later, she's like, what is this mucus plug? So, I mean, I just think there's a lot right, that people just have no idea. It still is kind of like being magical.
Dr. Neeta Jain:So, yeah. So I want to go to a couple of points that you raised Sarah, as well as Denise. The publicized bad outcomes of postpartum, whether depression or psychosis, may really scare a lot of women. In terms of bringing this forth, right? At the same time, like what Bee's husband does, he kind of in silence, is navigating this. So there's no open conversation there, of maybe just saying, OK, you know, he's trying to be very subtle. He's trying to help out the way he can, and I think, really trying to bring it to the forefront and normalize it in the sense that this happens to women. This happens in 1 in 10 to 1 to 15 women. This is something that we need to be aware of, we need to be on top of, and we can honestly be treated for this, and it's nothing to do with you personally. It's just a matter of our gender.
Dr. Denise Millstine:and experience
Dr. Neeta Jain: and experience, exactly.
Dr. Denise Millstine:I think another element to that, though, is that postpartum depression, like both of you have said, affects relationships. And so while Charlie's searching these things, he's also on pins and needles to see how is Bee going to respond to him? Is she going to be happy? Is she going to be emotional like? He also wants her to be okay, and so when he sees these light glimpses of the woman he fell in love with, I think he wants to be reassured. Oh, maybe it's not what I thought. Maybe it was just the baby blues, and now it's better. So I think that element of how any mood disorder, but certainly postpartum depression, can affect not just the woman's relationship with the baby, but also with the people who are closest to her. Do you guys agree?
Sarah Sawyer:Yeah, and I think for her, she's as the source of her guilt. Unfortunately, she is in the easiest possible circumstance. She has a very loving husband, she has money. It is easy compared to so many around the world and presumably in her own town, right? So, and even in that circumstance, it can be very difficult. And I think that's important to know too. It doesn't have anything to do with the external variables of your life at all.
Dr. Neeta Jain:And there's also depression that could be seen in their partners. So in fathers and partners experiencing this as a bidirectional component, where they're seeing it in their loved one, and then also feeling a little bit helpless, defeated. Don't know how to go about helping, what to do. So we do there's a higher rate of depression in fathers if the mother is experiencing postpartum depression. So that's something that's also important to kind of be aware of.
Dr. Denise Millstine:We're going to close with a piece of advice from each of you to a newborn mother who's listening to this episode, who is struggling with their mood, who wants to go first?
Dr. Neeta Jain:So I'd like to really tell women that, just by our gender, we're more prone to have depression and anxiety from the time that we start menstruating. So how we navigate through the postpartum period is so important, because it's not only you that you're dealing with, it's also the impact and the effects that it can have on your child. So. Important to be able to seek help, not be afraid to get help. People are much more aware, your OBGYN, your pediatrician, they're all aware of this possibility, and they only want to help you. So it's not something that you need to be ashamed of. It's something that is very treatable, and I would encourage you to do so.
Dr. Denise Millstine:You're not the only one. So if you approach one of those healthcare professionals you are going to be far from the first woman to come to them with this condition. Yeah, go ahead Sarah.
Sarah Sawyer:I was going to say something along those same lines, but one of the things that I have really treasured about becoming a mother is this sort of, and that was a long time ago, but I still feel like this is true, this sort of entree into this world of understanding. Like other women know what you're talking about. They absolutely do, and I think every woman can tell you the story of how their children were born from, you know, hour one to hour 20. You know, they know it in their bones, and they are ready to, kind of drop any anything to help, I think, because there is such a deep level of empathy. So I think definitely healthcare professionals, for sure, but also, I've been so moved so many times in my life by just asking for help from someone. You know, as I gave the example of handing off babies in the dining hall. But I definitely did not ask for help a lot in my life before I had children, and that was the thing I had to learn how to do. And I'm so happy to extend help, you know, to people. So I think, I think that's something it can feel like you're humbling yourself. But I think it can be also a really beautiful part of an experience that has a lot of parts to it that that are not so right, but that is, that is a really wonderful part of it. So I would say, just ask, ask the nearest for help, she will help you.
Dr. Neeta Jain:One of the examples that I give to a lot of new moms is, you know, think of what the airline students tell you, if the oxygen mask were to come down, who do you put it on first? You have to take care of yourself so you can be there to take care of your child. And I think that's the most important thing, is knowing that that matter.
Sarah Sawyer:Absolutely, agreed.
Dr. Denise Millstine:And don't do it alone, whether it's a healthcare professional or the group of moms around you, or the people in that community reach out to them. Listeners should know that “The Undercurrent” is really not entirely about this topic. There is a big plot line which is quite interesting. It will be a page turner for all of you who haven't read it yet. So go out and get a copy of “The Undercurrent” and read it. And I want to thank Sarah Sawyer and Dr. Neeta Jain for being here with me today on “Read. Talk. Grow.” Thank you, ladies.
Sarah Sawyer:Thank you for having me, this was great.
Dr. Neeta Jain:Thank you.
Dr. Denise Millstine: “Read. Talk. Grow.” is a product of the Women's Health Center at Mayo Clinic. This episode was made possible by the generous support of Ken Stevens. Our producer is Lisa Speckhard Pasque and our recording engineer is Rick Andresen.
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